TheGrebs.com:IRC Logs:#xen:2007:01:30

---	Log	opened Tue Jan 30 00:00:42 2007
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03:43	<cacophony>	hi, does intel VT allow guest operating systems direct access to hardware?
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08:12	<xorAxAx>	is it possible to somehow prioritise some attached block devices? i want to nice the XMs that are trashing currently so that the IO performance of the other ones degrades less
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08:19	<DavidS>	xorAxAx: there is ionice for current disk scedulers, but no idea how that works together with xen ...
08:19	<xorAxAx>	DavidS: yes, i am currently trying to ionice the xvd kernel task
08:24	<xorAxAx>	at least ionice didnt error
08:25	<riel>	if that does not work, you can use the tap:aio: backend
08:25	<riel>	and ionice the processes
08:27	<xorAxAx>	does tap:aio have any other advantages?
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08:28	<riel>	not over phy:
08:28	<danp1>	xorAxAx: over file: yes, not over phy:
08:28	<riel>	but it has the advantage of not corrupting your data over file: :)
08:29	<danp1>	file: should be ripped out completely because its a pile of shite when you care about your data having actually made it to disk
08:29	<riel>	file: is needed for HVM domains :)
08:29	<riel>	but yeah, for paravirt it should never ever be used
08:29	<danp1>	riel: no its not
08:29	<danp1>	the hotplug scripts create a loopback device for HVM, but its never used
08:30	<danp1>	because QEMU is perfectly capable of going straight to the raw file
08:32	<xorAxAx>	thanks for the answers
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10:49	<itamar>	hi
10:49	<itamar>	I can not export block device as /dev/sdaX in DomU
10:49	<itamar>	xen_blk: can't get major 8 with name sd
10:49	<itamar>	any help to fix this problem ?
10:50	<icblenke>	try /dev/xvdaX instead.
10:50	<itamar>	ok, a moment. I will try
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10:50	<itamar>	also I need to change in fstab of domU ?
10:50	<icblenke>	yes. and create /dev/xvdaX block devices (major 202)
10:53	<itamar>	mount: could not find filesystem '/dev/root'
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10:58	<itamar>	icblenke, thanks alot, now my domU is running again
10:58	<itamar>	:-)
10:59	<icblenke>	again, xen's frontend major hijacking causes more headaches for users than it solves.
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11:05	<hollisb>	amen
11:06	<ns>	seconded.
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12:05	<movement>	danp1: oops...
12:05	<movement>	danp1: this is what happens when you let someone who doesn't know python write python code ... thanks.
12:06	<danp1>	movement: actually, its not (entirely) your fault - according to jeremy this is a change in python 2.5 that no longer allows PyMem_DEL
12:06	<movement>	oh right. it was kind of cobbled together from other things I saw + pydoc...
12:09	<danp1>	movement: ahhh, yes the release notes have this to say
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12:09	<danp1>	Note that this change means extension modules must be more careful when allocating memory. Python's API has many different functions for allocating memory that are grouped into families. For example, PyMem_Malloc(), PyMem_Realloc(), and PyMem_Free() are one family that allocates raw memory, while PyObject_Malloc(), PyObject_Realloc(), and PyObject_Free() are another family that's supposed to be used for creating Python objects.
12:09	<danp1>	Previously these different families all reduced to the platform's malloc() and free() functions. This meant it didn't matter if you got things wrong and allocated memory with the PyMem function but freed it with the PyObject function. With 2.5's changes to obmalloc, these families now do different things and mismatches will probably result in a segfault. You should carefully test your C extension modules with Python 2.5.
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14:09	<swingle>	hi
14:11	<swingle>	i can create a new hvm domain and its running fine but after i stop it something looks to hang (hotplug scripts for what i see when i do ps -a) and i cant create more domains
14:11	<swingle>	how can i debug that?
14:12	<swingle>	another problem i have is that i cant assign an scsi cdrom drive to a domain
14:12	<swingle>	assigning the device file (/dev/sr0) wont work
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15:55	<DrX0>	The readme file says that if the VM "lives on a raw hard disk partition, lvm or evms volume" there is "a small risk to the integrity of the VM's data if domain0 crashed or power is lost" due to a problem with write ordering... is there a workaround?
16:01	<icblenke>	far less with devmapper than with a file: or tap:aio: loopback file.
16:02	<DrX0>	anyway to syncronize the writes between the host and the guest file system so there is NO chance of a problem?
16:04	<icblenke>	step 1: use a journalled data write filesystem. normal filesystems only journal the metadata. ext3 has a data=journal mode where the actual file writes are journalled, though there is a huge speed penalty.
16:05	<icblenke>	and do your drives write cache? make sure to disable that as well.
16:06	<DrX0>	how huge? do you need it on the host and the guest, or just the guest, and do you think it's worth the penalty in an environment where robustness trumps speed in most cases?
16:06	<icblenke>	if you're using IDE drives, you'll need a special ext3 patch to fix the blksync behavior.
16:06	<DrX0>	using SATA in as SAS backplane (show up as SCSI to Linux)
16:08	<icblenke>	what I'm trying to relate is that caching is something that is a fact of modern computing. power needs to be reliable.
16:09	<DrX0>	we don't really have that option... we just have bad power and I'm not even sure we can pass the UPS signaling through to the VMs to shut them down, can we?
16:09	<icblenke>	sure you can. in fact, that is the best practices to the solution anyway.
16:10	<icblenke>	have your dom0 shut down on UPS advice that power is going or gone.
16:10	<DrX0>	well, we'll do that, but there's always the case where the battery has gone bad or the UPS dies from taking a hit...
16:10	<danp1>	DrX0: if you are using phy: or tap:aio: backends, in the host, and ext3 (or other journalled fs) in the guest, then there should be no risk to guest filesystems integrity upon dom0 power loss
16:10	<icblenke>	there is also multi-drive failures.
16:11	<icblenke>	this is what backups are for.
16:11	<danp1>	DrX0: this was precisely the reason for migrating to tap:aio: in the first place
16:11	<icblenke>	danp1: that's not entirely true.
16:11	<danp1>	icblenke: sure you'll loose any data that's outstanding, but the journalling will ensure filesystem metadata retains integrity
16:12	<icblenke>	drives have write buffers, and usually cash by default, and often don't honor write cache flushing.
16:12	<danp1>	so you'll merely need journal recovery at boot time
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16:12	<DrX0>	thank goodness we don't have the multiple drive failure problem: we have RAID 5 and hot spares.
16:12	<icblenke>	and that's just metadata. unless you use a data journalling filesystem (not just metadata) you potentially lose data.
16:12	<danp1>	icblenke: ok, 'no risk' as in 'no worse risk than you'd get with baremetal under same circumstances'
16:12	<DrX0>	so, how do you turn on ext3 write journaling?
16:13	<icblenke>	data=journal, or faster but slightly riskier, data=ordered
16:13	<danp1>	icblenke: yes, you still want to take the sensible precautions for your Dom0 as you would with baremetal
16:13	<icblenke>	right.
16:13	<icblenke>	that's all I'm saying.
16:13	<danp1>	DrX0: NB data journaling will significantly slow down your performance
16:13	<icblenke>	it's not just a Xen thing.
16:14	<icblenke>	danp1: unless his dom0 is entirely write bound, then it might actually help.
16:14	<DrX0>	for a mission critical server w/ low utilization, would you sacrifice the performance?
16:14	<icblenke>	there are always corner cases and exceptions that you need to be aware of.
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16:14	<danp1>	DrX0: depends on the type of data your storing really
16:15	<danp1>	and the type of applications that are running on it
16:15	<icblenke>	I'd be looking for something that can do checkpointing myself, if it's that critical.
16:15	<danp1>	many apps are perfectly capable of recovering data loss, but equally many aren't :-)
16:16	<icblenke>	a well designed application doesn't need to care what it runs on ;)
16:16	<icblenke>	as long as that is worked into its design.
16:17	<DrX0>	well, I don't put any data in the VM partition, it's on separate dedicated RAID 5 volumes
16:17	<icblenke>	for the trivia bufs out there: the only other data journalling filesystem for Linux that I am aware of is gfs.
16:18	<icblenke>	DrX0: you do keep backups, right?
16:19	<DrX0>	so, really i guess it doesn't matter that much for the OS RAID 1 volumes, because a failed write would probably just be system cache data, right? Any applications writing at the time the server went down would have to handle the outage or .... backups.
16:19	<DrX0>	yes
16:19	<DrX0>	i just don't want the VM to go down and not come back up because of this...
16:20	<icblenke>	then minimize your risk with phy: or tap:aio:
16:20	<icblenke>	I strongly suggest the former.
16:20	<DrX0>	and I also don't want to lose data, of course, but a long outage will take out client systems too
16:21	<DrX0>	but I've found UPS monitoring doesn't properly shutdown many apps (esp legacy applications and stateful ones), so you're kind of hosed anyway. We're talking FoxPro applications, not Oracle right now.
16:22	<icblenke>	you know, I've never tried it... does xm shutdown cleanly shut down a windows HVM guest? (ie, guest os software shutdown?)
16:22	<icblenke>	it's not like you can suspend/restore HVMs yet... (waiting anxiously for 3.0.5)
16:22	<danp1>	icblenke: no
16:22	<icblenke>	so there's that.
16:22	<danp1>	icblenke: its akin to ripping out the power cord
16:22	<icblenke>	ow.
16:23	<DrX0>	won't matter if the underlying OS can do the shutdown first before the VM/system shutdown
16:24	<icblenke>	eh? your domUs need to shutdown cleanly (for FoxPro, I assume you're running windows HVMs), so you would need to send some network trigger or serial port signal telling windows to shutdown gracefully.
16:24	<DrX0>	actually, no running file and print under Linux for Foxpro actually, Windows is being used for SQL
16:25	<icblenke>	so you're still running HVM windows, and still need to gracefully bring that down before shutting down the dom0 on a UPS trigger.
16:25	<DrX0>	I'm just wondering, what's the best way to ensure my VMs aren't damaged and more importantly, the data the VM OSes write on separate block devices?
16:26	<DrX0>	icblenke, yes, i do need to bring down Linux & WIndows VM gracefully
16:26	<icblenke>	that's a complex question. hopefully the above discussion helps outline some of that.
16:27	<icblenke>	any PVs are easy enough to shutdown or suspend/restore.
16:27	<icblenke>	it's the HVMs that cause the headaches at the moment.
16:32	<DrX0>	I've been staying away from LVM and Reiser and sticking with regular partitions and Ext in part because of recovery issues, although I sure wish I could extend an ext3 paritition to span multiple disks.
16:34	<icblenke>	I strongly suggest the following configuration: one large partition as dom0's root (8G or so), and one partition for membership in a software raid10 used as a physical volume for a LVM2 volume group which you carve the rest of the space out of.
16:34	<mdday>	anyone having problems with xend silently dying upon startup (unstable, x86_64)?
16:34	<icblenke>	this way you can still "rescue" a box without worrying about an lvm'ed initrd.
16:35	<icblenke>	mdday: try turning up the debug: export XEND_DEBUG=1 ; export XENSTORED_TRACE=1 in your /etc/init.d/xend script.
16:35	<DrX0>	i've had too many recovery issues with LVM, so I'm tending toward regular partitions.
16:36	<mdday>	icblenke, thanks!
16:36	<icblenke>	with an lvm'ed root, yeah, I have too. that's why I avoid doing that now. just lvm the majority of your storage but leave yourself a bootable install so you can stop and start lvm over and over again while troubleshooting.
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16:38	<DrX0>	I guess that could work, then I could hot add more storage and increase the size of the data partitions without having to copy the data to new drives or backup, reparition, restore
16:40	<DrX0>	I've run into another nasty little problem: I installed Windows 2003 Server and it took out my Linux host (maintenance mode only) & repair didn't work. I'm reinstalling, any ideas how to avoid this when adding Windows 2003 again?
16:41	<icblenke>	yeah, build your images using vmware/qemu elsewhere, or heck, even HVM on another box, and copy the images onto the server.
16:42	<DrX0>	not really an option... and wouldn't that just move the problem anyway?
16:43	<icblenke>	this isn't a Xen problem, this isn't a linux problem, if you're installing windows2003 barebones on your hardware, microsoft tramples over everything and installs its own mbr and ntldr setup anyway.
16:43	<DrX0>	no no no, I was installing Windows 2003 in Xen
16:44	<DrX0>	(I learned that lesson the hard way)
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16:45	<icblenke>	are you exposing the entire drive to your win2k3 hvm image? (disk=/dev/hda,hda,w) ?
16:45	<icblenke>	if so, that's virtually the same thing. also, it's insane.
16:46	<DrX0>	that's may be what I did, so you're saying I should use disk=/dev/sda4,sda4,w)
16:46	<icblenke>	yes, please.
16:47	<icblenke>	but that won't work, will it.
16:47	<DrX0>	icblenke, why insane?
16:47	<DrX0>	I'm about to try it...
16:47	<icblenke>	first, qemu-dm in HVM emulates hda, not sda.
16:47	<icblenke>	secondly, if you specify a partition for a HVM disk image, you'll end up with a partition that has a partition table in it.
16:48	<DrX0>	yeah, that's right, so really Windows shouldn't have been able to see my Linux host parititions, right?
16:48	<icblenke>	disk=/dev/sda4,hda,w
16:49	<DrX0>	I'll try that, and I'm also pulling my RAID mirror drive right beforehand (because I'm not loading this thing again!)
16:49	<icblenke>	that means that HVM will see a full disk image as hda (C: drive, bios device 0x80), and your xen dom0 will see a partition /dev/sda4 that has a partition in it.
16:49	<icblenke>	partition table, that is. mbr, etc.
16:58	<DrX0>	i also read something about a problem with sparse files, should I still use sparse?
16:59	<icblenke>	you've already said you're using partitions.
16:59	<DrX0>	just curious, why does hypervirtualization ask for # of processors but full doesn't?
17:00	<icblenke>	ask for? what interface are you using?
17:01	<DrX0>	so it's asking for the Virtual disk, I'm going to give it /dev/sda5 ?
17:03	<icblenke>	if that's the partition you want to give your image for its entire virtual disk, sure.
17:03	<DrX0>	no, it won't take that, hda seems to be pointing the host os partition, can I just pick hdb?
17:03	<icblenke>	I don't know what interface you are using.
17:03	<icblenke>	I use the xm config files.
17:03	<icblenke>	so, at this point, you'll have to ask someone who is familiar with whatever provisioning tool you are using.
17:03	<DrX0>	I'm choosing Block device
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17:04	<DrX0>	and I'm giving it /dev/sda5 for the device path
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17:04	<DrX0>	but it requires a Virtual DIsk entry
17:05	<DrX0>	So, I'm thinking hda is being (pointing to Xen host partition), so I'm thinking of giving it hdb which probably isn't in use
17:05	<icblenke>	you are booting from SATA and using SATA disks. libata is the SATA driver. therefor, all of your dom0 disks are going to be /dev/sd*
17:06	<icblenke>	that being said, your physical partitions that you have carved up for your guest domains are going to be /dev/sda4, /dev/sda5, etc.
17:06	<DrX0>	right, the partition I want the VM on is /dev/sba1... I'm not telling it sda because I don't want windows hosing my Linux OS again.
17:06	<icblenke>	now inside the image, HVM will be presenting an IDE disk via qemu-dm
17:06	<icblenke>	this disk should be something like hda, hdb, hdc, etc.
17:07	<icblenke>	my problem is with your terminology.
17:07	<icblenke>	you are saying things I am unfamiliar with, as I do not use the provisioning GUI that you do.
17:07	<DrX0>	yeah, it offers me hda, hdb, hdd as default choices
17:08	<icblenke>	to me, you should be saying something like disk=[ '/dev/sda4,hda,w' ] in your xm config file.
17:08	<DrX0>	I figure I'll skip hda since it seems to be pointed to the VM host os paritition /etc/xen
17:08	<DrX0>	I figure I'll skip hda since it seems to be pointed to the VM host os paritition /etc/xen/vm
17:08	<icblenke>	what are you talking about?
17:08	<DrX0>	in the Virtual Machine Manager
17:08	<icblenke>	again, terminology.
17:08	<icblenke>	I am lost.
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17:08	<DrX0>	it builds the config file for me
17:08	<icblenke>	for windows?
17:09	<DrX0>	yes, windows, linux, whatever OS
17:09	<icblenke>	can you paste your xm config file somewhere I can get to it to see what you are talking about?
17:10	<DrX0>	well, the install just started, but yes, before I tell windows to install, I'll copy the xm config file and then paste it...
17:10	<icblenke>	I don't understand why your hda would already be used. unless that's where your CD image is being exposed as a drive for installing windows from.
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17:14	<DrX0>	yeah, it might not be, it might just be offering it, I'm just trying to avoid a repeat destruction of LInux by being careful to use hdb
17:14	<DrX0>	will I give up a drive letter for safety? you betcha!
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17:22	<DrX0>	disk= [phy:/dev/sda5,ioemu:hdb,w' ]
17:22	<DrX0>	builder = 'hvm'
17:22	<DrX0>	device_model = '/usr/lib/xen/bin/qeum-dm'
17:23	<DrX0>	er, qumu
17:23	<DrX0>	er, qemu
17:23	<DrX0>	kernel = '/usr/lib/xen/boot/hvmloader'
17:23	<DrX0>	...
17:23	<DrX0>	boot = 'd'
17:23	<DrX0>	cdrom = '/dev/hda/
17:23	<DrX0>	well, we know where hda went now!
17:24	<icblenke>	cdrom = '/dev/hda' is wrong. does that still work?
17:24	<DrX0>	yes, totally!
17:24	<DrX0>	any reason this disk= line would hose my Linux host OS?
17:24	<icblenke>	it should be disk = [ '/dev/sda4,hda,w', '/dev/hda,hdc:cdrom,r' ]
17:25	<icblenke>	the cdrom = '/dev/hda' is deprecated, I'm suprised it still works.
17:25	<DrX0>	no, the partition is sda4 (I forgot to count the extended partition #) and hda is taken by the cd, right?
17:25	<icblenke>	I don't know how cdrom= works, I've never managed to get that working myself.
17:25	<icblenke>	I've always used the newer notation of hdc:cdrom in disks.
17:25	<DrX0>	I mean, I don't really care where the CD is, it's working, and I don't care that I'm using hdb for the block device, but I just don't want to hose my Linux host OS again! Someone told me Windows tends to reorder partitions.
17:26	<DrX0>	no harm doing this way, right?
17:26	<icblenke>	if your cdrom is appearing as hda, that would make it bios device 0x80, which means boot=c is what you would be using.
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17:27	<icblenke>	as you are using boot=d, that implies that your cdrom is appearing as hdc or hdd, and as there is an IDE disk as hda (as /dev/sda4) as bios device 0x80, that would make 0x81 the appropriate boot device, which would make boot=d correct
17:27	<DrX0>	i was told it's boot=d for the installation, and boot=c afterward, but I just read that in the XenSource guide
17:27	<DrX0>	anyway, it booted!
17:27	<icblenke>	boot=c means "boot from BIOS device 0x80"
17:27	<DrX0>	I'm looking a text-mode windows 2003 install screen
17:27	<icblenke>	boot=d means "boot from BIOS device 0x81"
17:27	<icblenke>	the BIOS scans the disks in the order it sees them. from hda to hdd
17:28	<DrX0>	right, but remember, this are virtualized
17:28	<icblenke>	and on that note, I'm heading home. to eat dinner.
17:28	<icblenke>	good luck!
17:28	<DrX0>	OK, so do you think I can go ahead with this without hosing my Linux host?
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17:31	<DrX0>	HVMAssist BIOS screen shows ata0, unknown device
17:31	<DrX0>	ata0 slave: QEMU HARDDISK ATA -2 hard disk (-4093 MB)
17:32	<DrX0>	ata1 master: QEMU CD-ROM ATAPI-4 CD Rom/DVDROM
17:32	<DrX0>	ata1 slave: unknown device
17:32	<DrX0>	maybe they set it the CDROM to hda because the block device isn't formatted yet.
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17:33	<DrX0>	anyway, I went ahead with the install because I yanked my mirror drive so I can get back without losing anything.
17:34	<indigoblu>	hello, can anybody comment on running games on a VT capable/Windows XP setup with Linux as domain0?
17:35	<aliguori>	indigoblu: unless it's solitaire, you aren't going to be happy with it.
17:35	<indigoblu>	ive seen some comments on the mailing list, but nothing truly definitive
17:35	<ns>	rofl
17:35	<ns>	indigoblu: i/o very, very slow
17:35	<aliguori>	indigoblu: no 3d graphics, slow 2d graphics
17:35	<indigoblu>	aliguori, is this due to i/o requests being routed through dom0?, I guess im just looking for somebody who has tried
17:36	<aliguori>	indigoblu: see above
17:36	<aliguori>	indigoblu: we emulate what's essentially a slow version of a graphics card from 10 years ago
17:36	<indigoblu>	is there anyway I can assign a graphics device to the guest OS itself?
17:36	<aliguori>	indigoblu: no
17:36	<ns>	not yet, at any rate
17:37	<indigoblu>	aliguori, ie: basic framebuffer support
17:37	<aliguori>	indigoblu: yes
17:37	<indigoblu>	hmm... one more question.
17:37	<ns>	indigoblu: i really wouldn't recommend it yet
17:38	<indigoblu>	im using libvirt to write a web-based frontend Xen, and im wondering whats the best way to capture current CPU utilization?
17:40	<danp1>	indigoblu: use the virGetDomainInfo() call
17:41	<danp1>	it gives you the number microseconds a guest has executed on the CPU
17:41	<DrX0>	any reason I wouldn't want Destroy for "When the VM is Powered Off"?
17:41	<danp1>	take 2 samples 'n' seconds apart, compare the delta and thus you can work out utilization
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17:46	<DrX0>	hello
17:51	<DrX0>	how do you get the mouse to move outside the VM?
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18:34	<indigoblu>	danp1, anyway to get instance CPU utilization information?
18:36	<danp1>	you can calculate utilization based on cpuTime field from consequetive calls to virDomainGetInfo()
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18:56	<DrX0>	danp1, how do I view a running VM SDL console?
18:57	<DrX0>	danp1, is VNC my only option?
18:59	<indigoblu>	DrX0, SDL console?
18:59	<DrX0>	SDL console?
18:59	<indigoblu>	DrX0, what do you mean by SDL?
19:00	<DrX0>	I was installing a VM and the machine froze (maybe that XWindows resource problem)...
19:01	<DrX0>	I had not yet assigned an IP to the guest OS and have no DHCP server, so I can't really VNC.
19:01	<DrX0>	SDL is the console type selected for this guest.
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19:03	<DrX0>	I can start over, but if I can view the running guest OS SDL console I can just continue the installation.
19:03	<DrX0>	but if I shut it down, it will get destroyed because that's the option set.
19:06	<DrX0>	anyone know how to view an SDL Console without RDP????
19:15	<DrX0>	indigoblu, there's something called XenView, not sure if it works without an IP, but you can Shutdown a Xen guest and it will restart (I guess it only gets destroyed if you hit terminate).
19:16	<DrX0>	indigoblu, thank goodness for the good old Shutdown button!
19:17	<indigoblu>	hmm so it just restarts the VM?
19:17	<indigoblu>	I dont get the concept?
19:17	<indigoblu>	I have just used the xm tool
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19:22	<DrX0>	indigoblu, it doesn't restart it, it just sort of pauses it in it's current state. You then have to click Start to fire it back up, which worked great because it opened up the guest Window and let me restart the installation (I'm just praying it doesn't free again).
19:23	<DrX0>	indigoblu, at least that's what it looks like. Perhaps it would have worked either way...
19:23	<indigoblu>	so its the same as xm pause, xm unpause
19:24	<DrX0>	indigoblu, yes, i think thats what shutdown and start do, but terminate kills the VM and removes it from memory, is what it looks like anyway.
19:25	<indigoblu>	correct, if I pause a domain using xm pause, it just freezes execution and I can resume at a later time
19:25	<DrX0>	indigoblu, right
19:26	<DrX0>	indigoblu, funny thing, I was kinda bummed that the default behavior didn't give me a GUI when installing Linux guest, but now that I know about the XWindows resource/freeze problem, that might be a blessing.
19:26	<DrX0>	indigoblu, I might just want to shut X down in the host OS after everything is configured too.
19:27	<DrX0>	indigoblu, it's amazing how much damage GUIs can be to an OS, Linux, UNIX, Solaris, & Windows alike.
19:27	<indigoblu>	DrX0, ive just used images from jailtime.org, and then done installation from there
19:27	<DrX0>	indigoblu, jailtime.org? sounds bad
19:27	<indigoblu>	heh... no very good... http://jailtime.org
19:27	<DrX0>	indigoblu, I wasn't really looking for any jailtime...
19:28	<indigoblu>	lightweight images, just extract them and, configure Xen configuration for the VM, and start them
19:28	<DrX0>	indigoblu, plus, we're in a supported environment so we have to know how to build the config and be able to state that "this is out of the box SUSE 10.1" or whatever the case may be, wouldn't that be hard to do w/ prebuilt?
19:29	<DrX0>	indigoblu, I can see that as useful if you want to play with something that isn't mission critical supported.
19:29	<DrX0>	indigoblu, that would be cool for VOIP or PDR Linux...
19:30	<DrX0>	indigoblu, but out of the box VOIP/PDR probably doesn't exist unless you have the exact hardware.
19:30	<DrX0>	frozen again!
19:30	<DrX0>	ARRGHHHH! This worked yesterday!!!!
19:32	<DrX0>	If this keeps up, I'll have to run Windows & Virtual Server. Then I won't need Linux at all because the host OS won't be more reliable than the guest in theory.
19:32	<indigoblu>	DrX0, I use jailtime as a base image and then use buildscripts to customize the environment based on need. The alternative is a kickstart install (redhat), but I build so many environments waiting for install would get cumbersome
19:33	<DrX0>	indigoblu, I wonder if Fedora 6 would be easier/more reliable than SLES10 to get this up and running?
19:34	<indigoblu>	it is
19:34	<indigoblu>	well
19:34	<indigoblu>	i dont use SLES
19:34	<indigoblu>	what are you stuck on?
19:35	<DrX0>	indigoblu, I'm installing WIndows 2003 Server under SLES10/Xen as a guest, and it keeps freezing in the GUI install portion at 27%.
19:36	<indigoblu>	never tried running windows on Xen :-(
19:37	<DrX0>	indigoblu, yesterday, it worked great. Today, no such luck using same SUSE and same box!
19:37	<indigoblu>	any error messages, or it just freeze?
19:37	<DrX0>	indigoblu, although I did enable the firewall on the host os, which I didn't do yesterday.
19:38	<DrX0>	Freeze. No ctrl-alt-backspace, no ctrl-alt-F1/F7
19:39	<DrX0>	indigoblu, I would think the firewall wouldn't affect guest-to-host communications, tho.
19:41	<DrX0>	I suppose I could run VMWare Server under Linux instead of Xen.
19:41	<DrX0>	I've found it to be a pain to setup.
19:42	<DrX0>	but, then if Xen keeps commiting suicide and killing SUSE like it is, maybe it's worth the effort.
19:43	<DrX0>	indigoblu, do you know if the firewall can cause host-guest communication issues?
19:44	<indigoblu>	sure, the firewall can apply policy to the xen network bridge, xen virtual network interface, and the physical interface
19:46	<DrX0>	indigoblu, I also chose Cirrus Logic for video this time, so I'm going to try it again with Standard VGA.
19:46	<indigoblu>	that would most likely be a problem
19:47	<indigoblu>	I would choose the most basic video option available
19:47	<DrX0>	indigoblu, yeah, I'm thinking 27% might be where the video kicks in...
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19:51	<indigoblu>	DrX0, yeah, as I had just asked somebody else previously, Xen only supports basic framebuffer
19:52	<indigoblu>	I was hoping I could run games on a VT enabled proc
19:53	<DrX0>	indigoblu, solitaire
19:54	<DrX0>	indigoblu, actually it may be possible but not easy
19:55	<DrX0>	indigoblu, and most games need performance, why not run games in host os?
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19:58	<indigoblu>	DrX0, because I want a single box that can do my work on and run games
19:58	<DrX0>	indigoblu, right -- dual boot
19:58	<indigoblu>	DrX0, I hate rebooting all the time
19:58	<indigoblu>	DrX0, rather just fire up a VM
19:59	<DrX0>	indigoblu, what video card do you have?
19:59	<indigoblu>	DrX0, right now, just a 6600GT, but this is in my work box. I would get a better one if I was going to use it for games also
20:00	<DrX0>	indigoblu, well, choose carefully. I understand there are pretty clear how to instructions for at least certain NVIDIA cards, but ATI could be a problem. Too bad, because ATI is SOOOO good.
20:00	<indigoblu>	pretty clear instructions for what?
20:01	<DrX0>	indigoblu, how to install the native drivers for Nvidia cards running Virtualized.
20:01	<DrX0>	indigoblu, still not saying it's going to be your optimal gaming experience, but they apparantly run, many of the popular games at least.
20:02	<DrX0>	indigoblu, now if I'm not mistaken, you have an Nvidia 6600GT chipset there... so if I were you I'd try it.
20:03	<indigoblu>	im missing the CPU, otherwise I would
20:03	<indigoblu>	I have a Pentium-D 830....
20:03	<indigoblu>	:-/
20:03	<DrX0>	:(
20:04	<DrX0>	I don't have V or VT at home, but I do have a dual core Xeon in the office with V (stay away from AMD VT if you're running a Windows Server -- trust me)
20:05	<DrX0>	oh crap, the server just rebooted... must have too much of a drag on this lowly UPS.
20:06	<DrX0>	you probably have to replace your mainboard, too, because V and VT require BIOS extensions and V and VT have to be enabled in the BIOS
20:07	<DrX0>	indigoblu, did you know that Dell has a notebook that has hw virt! Now that's my next rig!
20:08	<indigoblu>	DrX0, you sure its not just using a CPU with virtualization instructions?
20:08	<DrX0>	indigoblu, well, I saw it run Windows XP under SLED10 so I would say I'm sure
20:09	<DrX0>	indigoblu, UNLESS you know of a way to pull that off, but then we wouldn't need V or VT, would we?
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20:14	<DrX0>	indigoblu, I wonder if Crossover Office is out yet for Linux -- they tell me that runs many popular applications and games.
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20:26	<DrX0>	indigoblu, dumb question: how do you get the mouse out of the VM window?
20:27	<indigoblu>	DrX0, crossover has been available for a long time.
20:27	<indigoblu>	DrX0, you can try the non-supported fork of it (www.winehq.com)
20:27	<DrX0>	drx0, for LINUX
20:27	<DrX0>	?
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20:27	<DrX0>	indigoblu, I thought only for Mac.
20:27	<indigoblu>	yulp, Crossover was frist released on Linux
20:27	<DrX0>	indigoblu, oh, so the mac version is new or not out yet?
20:27	<indigoblu>	its based on the wine project
20:27	<indigoblu>	which has been around forever
20:28	<indigoblu>	http://www.codeweavers.com/
20:28	<DrX0>	indigoblu, have you tried that for your games?
20:29	<indigoblu>	DrX0, I did try Cedega's WineX, which is based off a wine fork that focuses on good DirectX support
20:29	<DrX0>	indigoblu, how did that go?
20:29	<indigoblu>	it worked, I didnt like to pay for it though
20:30	<indigoblu>	you have to buy a subscription to the software
20:30	<indigoblu>	which im not willing to do, id rather spend money on additional hardware
20:30	<indigoblu>	it also was not as seamless as it should be, it required some hacking to get things to work
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21:15	<DrX0>	anyone know what to do if you're Windows 2003 VM installation freezes up randomly at different points?
21:16	<icblenke>	yes. use qemu or vmware to build your images. that's just what happens when you install under xen. it's a realmode timing thing.
21:17	<icblenke>	if you end up with a functional image that doesn't bluescreen on boot after waiting for it to install over the next 10 hours, I'll be impressed.
21:17	<DrX0>	i thought i was using QEMU
21:18	<DrX0>	(it happened yesterday)
21:18	<icblenke>	you are using Xen HVM. the DEVICES are emulated by a modified version of QEMU that just does the device mapping (qemu-dm)
21:19	<DrX0>	icblenke, so are you saying that even if I get it installed, it's going to crash (the install only takes about 45 minutes)
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21:21	<icblenke>	I only tried once myself. It took 10 hours. It bluescreened after the second reboot. YMMV
21:22	<icblenke>	granted, mine was with AMD svm. no idea if Intel VT is better about it.
21:22	<icblenke>	converting vmware/qemu images works just fine for me anyway.
21:27	<DrX0>	icblenke, so you're saying I should install VMWare Server on this box, install Windows 2003 Server, and then convert the whole thing to Xen afterward?
21:33	<DrX0>	should I just run VMWare Server on Linux instead of Xen? I don't really care personally, I just need a Linux guest and a Windows 2003/SQL guest and reliability is KEY.
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21:41	<DrX0>	icblenke, do you think the volume type matters (VLM vs regular partition) or filesystem (resier vs ext3)... i had no trouble with VLM & resier, but now using regular partitions & ext3 it's a nightmare.
21:54	<icblenke>	use what works.
21:56	<DrX0>	icblenke, yeah, I'm trying it one last time & after that I'm going back. but, would I be better off with VMWare Server and converting the VMs?
21:57	<icblenke>	did your HVM install of win2k3 finish? does it boot for you?
21:59	<DrX0>	icblenke, today, nothing doing. yesterday, it all worked. but I did change some things: (1) enabled firewall on HOST OS, (2) enabled SSH & remote VNC on host, (3) changed to 3 primary & 1 extended partition from LVM partitions.
22:01	<DrX0>	icblenke, anything I can do about this real mode thing?
22:02	<icblenke>	I believe there's a fix in 3.0.4 that addresses that issue.
22:02	<DrX0>	icblenke, so how do I go about using your method?
22:03	<icblenke>	http://ian.blenke.com/xen/vmware/
22:03	<DrX0>	icblenke, I'll check it out, thank you kindly!
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---	Log	closed Wed Jan 31 00:00:25 2007