| --- | Log | opened Thu Jun 22 00:00:15 2006 |
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| 02:34 | <chax> | how exactly is a guest os 's virtual nic able to get the packets it wants ..? |
| 02:36 | <chax> | is it through bind_evntchn_to_irqhandler () .. in xen/drivers/netif/backend/interface.c ??? |
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| 09:38 | <DV> | aliguori: hi |
| 09:39 | <aliguori> | DV: howdy |
| 09:39 | <DV> | aliguori: loking at the libvirt/XML-RPC/auth problem |
| 09:40 | <DV> | aliguori: what I would like to change is have well identified read-only ops |
| 09:40 | <DV> | aliguori: and then allow them if there is no authentication |
| 09:40 | <DV> | aliguori: I tried to dig in the xmlrpcserver python stuff but got lost |
| 09:40 | <aliguori> | DV: well.. anything that let's an unprivileged user interact with xend is going to scare me |
| 09:41 | <aliguori> | i don't trust the xend code enough |
| 09:41 | <aliguori> | it seems like a huge potential security hole to me |
| 09:42 | <DV> | aliguori: to me that's the only practical way to go if you want an applet which work on someone desktop |
| 09:42 | <aliguori> | there are other alternatives |
| 09:42 | <aliguori> | like a suid proxy |
| 09:42 | <aliguori> | or a suid "helper" |
| 09:42 | <aliguori> | something external to xend that has a small, auditable, code base |
| 09:42 | <DV> | aliguori: I'm really not sold on the idea of an intermediary |
| 09:43 | <aliguori> | DV: I know :-) |
| 09:43 | <aliguori> | but it's a trade off of performance in something that's not performance critical vs security in something that is critical to security :-) |
| 09:44 | <aliguori> | i mean, gees, xend creates a thread per xml rpc request |
| 09:44 | <aliguori> | there's so much overhead there already |
| 09:44 | <DV> | this is custom code that nobody else is gonna review |
| 09:44 | <aliguori> | which code? |
| 09:44 | <aliguori> | you mean a proxy? |
| 09:44 | <DV> | the proxy suid thing |
| 09:45 | <aliguori> | you can't retrofit security... xend wasn't designed to consider unprivileged users |
| 09:45 | <aliguori> | it would take a serious effort to analysis it to seriously allow unprivileged access |
| 09:46 | <aliguori> | there's so many ways that a misbehaving client can screw with xend |
| 09:46 | <DV> | yeah :-( |
| 09:46 | <aliguori> | i'm not 100% confident in the xmlrpc code either in python |
| 09:46 | <aliguori> | we would be assuming that all that code is safe |
| 09:46 | <aliguori> | all it takes is a malformed packet that causes an exception to be thrown and you've got a local user DoS |
| 09:47 | [~] | DV sighs |
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| 09:49 | <aliguori> | yeah, I know. the proxy is the best solution i've been able to think of |
| 09:50 | <DV> | so many convolutation to avoid bad code |
| 09:50 | [~] | aliguori shrugs |
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| 09:50 | <aliguori> | hey, i tried to get rid of xend :-) |
| 09:50 | <DV> | I know I know |
| 09:53 | <aliguori> | :-) |
| 09:53 | <DV> | I need a solution ASAP, and at least that doesn't require an acceptance of a patch 'upstream' |
| 09:53 | [~] | DV feels cornered |
| 09:53 | <aliguori> | DV: a proxy is real easy to write... |
| 09:54 | <DV> | tell me about the number of bug accumulated in sqid over the years |
| 09:54 | <DV> | squid |
| 09:54 | <aliguori> | heh |
| 09:54 | <DV> | I know, I use it |
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| 15:34 | <mdday> | aliguori: a proxy will not help you unless authorization semantics are built into the xml-rpc protocol |
| 15:34 | <mdday> | if so, a proxy will be much simpler |
| 15:35 | <mdday> | ostensibly the rpc will be simpler than http/html ;-) |
| 15:36 | <mdday> | DV: if you can proxy xend then you can replace it. |
| 15:38 | [~] | mdday should pay more attention to time stamps. :-( |
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| 15:49 | <aliguori> | mdday, since we do httpu, there's already filesystem authorization there. the idea is to build a suid proxy that allows through a subset of the RPCs (proxying from http => httpu) |
| 15:49 | <aliguori> | or perhaps even from httpu => httpu |
| 15:50 | <mdday> | that's too gross to get what's necessary. You want authorization on properties against roles. |
| 15:50 | <aliguori> | heh |
| 15:51 | <aliguori> | long term, sure |
| 15:51 | <mdday> | gross meaning not fine enough |
| 15:51 | <aliguori> | well, DV is trying to address a very simple use case where there's only two roles |
| 15:52 | <aliguori> | i agree that long term we need much more sophisticated roles/acls |
| 15:52 | <aliguori> | and concepts like domain ownership |
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| 16:19 | <DV> | mdday, aliguori: back from badminton, reading now |
| 16:20 | <DV> | mdday: "if you can proxy xend then you can replace it" hum :-) |
| 16:21 | <mdday> | DV: that's the goal - wrap it, then replace it :-) |
| 16:21 | <DV> | mdday: my problem ATM is get something that works relatively fast |
| 16:21 | <mdday> | DV: yeah aliguori tipped me off to that. |
| 16:22 | <DV> | mdday: I posted my though about authentication and notion of ownership on xen-devel a few months ago |
| 16:22 | <mdday> | wrapping web services with proxy is a respected method to get some security without blocking at firewall |
| 16:22 | <DV> | mdday: but I felt like a Multics old timer in a Microsoft crowd :-) |
| 16:23 | <mdday> | I'll look it up. Or a java only crowd ;_) |
| 16:23 | <DV> | mdday: I'm not enthusiastic about the notion of proxy |
| 16:23 | <aliguori> | DV: ouch, did you just compare me to a Microsoftee? |
| 16:23 | <aliguori> | that hurts... |
| 16:23 | <aliguori> | :-) |
| 16:24 | <DV> | aliguori: well I'm not a Multics old timer either ;-) |
| 16:24 | <DV> | mdday: really feel like a patch when what you need is replace the engine |
| 16:25 | <DV> | and migration, oh my, migration ! |
| 16:25 | <aliguori> | hehe |
| 16:25 | <mdday> | DV: true, but if you proxy then you can replace the engine later and no one will know |
| 16:26 | <DV> | well, libvirt is one step toward isolation, I didn't expected I woule have to add that |
| 16:26 | <DV> | would |
| 16:26 | <aliguori> | it's liking watching a really bad B movie... sometimes you just have to suspend disbelief :-) |
| 16:26 | <DV> | the worse thing is that we all had collectively the knowledge to avoid the main troubles we are facing now |
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| 16:28 | <mdday> | DV: were you referring to the ssh tunnel discussion? |
| 16:28 | <DV> | mdday: not specifically |
| 16:28 | <mdday> | aliguori: ever watch mystery science theatre 3k? |
| 16:28 | <johnlev_> | aliguori: what is xend going to get replaced with? |
| 16:28 | <aliguori> | johnlev_, heh, i wish |
| 16:29 | <mdday> | a better version of itself :-) |
| 16:29 | <aliguori> | there are no plans to eliminate xend anytime soon |
| 16:29 | <aliguori> | johnlev_, the best we could do, is eliminate the need for xend |
| 16:29 | <mdday> | aliguori has no plans to eliminate xend |
| 16:29 | <aliguori> | by fixing a few of the things that necessitate it |
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| 16:29 | <johnlev_> | I gathered that, I was more asking what we would get instead |
| 16:29 | <johnlev_> | :) |
| 16:30 | <mdday> | got2go drive my son to cross-country practice - later ! |
| 16:30 | <DV> | bye :-) |
| 16:30 | <aliguori> | johnlev_, well, the first step is identifying why we need xend. it plays three roles. the first is web services which we can happily ignore |
| 16:30 | <aliguori> | the second is migration |
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| 16:30 | <aliguori> | the third is lifecycle management |
| 16:31 | <johnlev_> | it's the third that I'm really asking about. |
| 16:31 | <DV> | aliguori: creation is complex too |
| 16:31 | <aliguori> | we can eliminate the need for a daemon to handle migration by introducing an incoming/outgoing migration command |
| 16:31 | <aliguori> | DV: actually, it's not anymore |
| 16:31 | <johnlev_> | yep |
| 16:31 | <aliguori> | xend has very little to do with creation these days |
| 16:31 | <aliguori> | it's all hotplug magic |
| 16:31 | <DV> | humm ... |
| 16:31 | <aliguori> | johnlev_, well, my (likely unpopular) idea is that we should move domain building into the hypervisor |
| 16:32 | <aliguori> | and let the hypervisor do reboots (by caching the domain creation parameters) |
| 16:32 | <aliguori> | DV: to do domain creation, you just have to write some stuff in xenstored |
| 16:32 | <aliguori> | you don't strictly need a daemon (other than xenstore) |
| 16:32 | <DV> | domain building, that's what I think is complex |
| 16:32 | <aliguori> | ah, yes |
| 16:32 | <aliguori> | so, the funny thing is that the linux building code is already in the hypervisor |
| 16:32 | <aliguori> | so... |
| 16:32 | <aliguori> | why duplicate it in userspace? |
| 16:33 | <DV> | currently it's user space, all the pages table, devices setup etc .. |
| 16:33 | <aliguori> | it's in both |
| 16:33 | <aliguori> | b/c you have to build domain-0 |
| 16:33 | <DV> | uhu |
| 16:33 | <DV> | right, logically right |
| 16:33 | <DV> | well dom0 kernel is user space :-) |
| 16:34 | <hollisb> | I don't know about setting up the virtual IO drivers, but loading a kernel is not rocket science |
| 16:34 | <aliguori> | hollisb, depends on your perspective |
| 16:34 | <DV> | hollisb: I started looking at Xen code by looking at the domain creation process and that was a bad idea :-) |
| 16:34 | <aliguori> | hollisb, loading a kernel and setting up the initial page tables/processor state is pretty obscure if you're not familiar with x86 internals |
| 16:35 | <DV> | x86 doesn't help here for sure |
| 16:35 | <hollisb> | aliguori: ok, well I'm speaking from a non-x86 perspective :) |
| 16:35 | <aliguori> | hollisb, of course :-) |
| 16:35 | <hollisb> | I guess the fact that the domains are started in virtual mode does complicate things (relative to a bootloader) |
| 16:35 | <DV> | hollisb: bahh PPC is too clean to be fun |
| 16:35 | <aliguori> | hollisb, papr uses a high level partition creation hcall right? where you pass it a kernel/initrd/cmdline? |
| 16:36 | <hollisb> | aliguori: nope, nothing like that. PAPR doesn't specify management interfaces |
| 16:36 | <aliguori> | hollisb, oh, does phyp do that then? |
| 16:36 | <aliguori> | i thought i remember you telling me that something did |
| 16:36 | <hollisb> | no idea |
| 16:36 | [~] | aliguori shrugs |
| 16:37 | <aliguori> | anyway, if you eliminate migration and lifecycle management as stateful operations, xend just becomes a web services daemon |
| 16:37 | <aliguori> | which you can just not run if you don't want to |
| 16:37 | [~] | DV should go to bed, it's a bit late to revisit how the world/kernel/xen is built |
| 16:37 | <aliguori> | which would make a lot of people happy |
| 16:41 | <johnlev_> | and what about xengrrrrstored. I was always a bit confused as to why it even has a persistent store. |
| 16:41 | <aliguori> | yeah |
| 16:41 | <aliguori> | that's another problem |
| 16:41 | [~] | hollisb watches johnlev_ open another can of worms :) |
| 16:41 | <aliguori> | i'm not ready to fight that battle yet |
| 16:41 | <johnlev_> | :) |
| 16:41 | <aliguori> | i've lost too much hair over xenstored already |
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| 16:42 | <aliguori> | johnlev_, the thing that kills me about xenstored is that the longer it's around, the harder it's going to be to replace |
| 16:42 | <aliguori> | it's too darn general purpose |
| 16:42 | <ns> | aliguori: what hair?? :) |
| 16:43 | <aliguori> | ns: i had it before xenstored! |
| 16:43 | <aliguori> | :-) |
| 16:43 | <ns> | :) |
| 16:43 | <ns> | that was a nice pic of you on the xensource searchlight, in any case (musta been before your tangle with xenstored ;)) |
| 16:43 | <johnlev_> | aliguori: yep :/ |
| 16:45 | <aliguori> | ns: that pic is a pretty awful one actually. a friend was bugging me for a mugshot for a book he was writing and he cornered me one day |
| 16:45 | <aliguori> | ns: the only other current pictures i have would not have represented ibm well ;-) |
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| 16:46 | <ns> | i can well imagine ;) |
| 16:55 | <aliguori> | oh cool, mpm is giving a mercurial talk at ols |
| 16:56 | <hollisb> | his tutorial last year was good |
| 16:56 | <DV> | good I may finally undestand how it's supposed to work |
| 16:56 | <hollisb> | DV: is it unclear? |
| 16:56 | <aliguori> | man, the vmi and xen talk are at the same time |
| 16:56 | <aliguori> | that's not cool |
| 16:56 | <DV> | hg ? not clear at all |
| 16:57 | <aliguori> | it takes a while to get used too i think |
| 16:57 | <hollisb> | DV: are you serious? have you read the docs in the wiki? |
| 16:58 | <DV> | no :-) |
| 16:58 | <aliguori> | hollisb, I think you're bias because you came from bk |
| 16:58 | <hollisb> | DV: gee |
| 16:58 | <aliguori> | hollisb, i read the docs before i started using it and it still took a while to click |
| 16:58 | <DV> | wiki.xensource.com was not in DNS last time I checked |
| 16:58 | <hollisb> | aliguori: I didn't really use bk very much actually |
| 16:58 | <hollisb> | DV: a) you're wrong, and b) try the mercurial wiki |
| 16:59 | <aliguori> | DV: it resolves for me |
| 16:59 | <aliguori> | lol |
| 16:59 | <hollisb> | aliguori: hg is like how I always wished cvs would have worked |
| 16:59 | <DV> | yup work now, wasn't on Tuesday for me |
| 16:59 | <aliguori> | DV: if you really want to see hollisb upset, refer to a revision by short id :-) |
| 16:59 | <hollisb> | like Keir does |
| 16:59 | <hollisb> | over and over |
| 16:59 | <hollisb> | and over and over |
| 16:59 | <DV> | I think I understand how CVS work, total order, yada yada |
| 16:59 | <aliguori> | lol! |
| 17:00 | <hollisb> | "my personal tree is the only tree in the world that could possibly matter" |
| 17:00 | <hollisb> | *smack* |
| 17:00 | <hollisb> | so yes, now I'm upset again :) |
| 17:00 | <hollisb> | anyways I'm out |
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| 17:01 | <aliguori> | heh |
| 17:01 | <DV> | hollisb: baseball bats forbidden at OLS, alcoholic beverage are the only tolerated assault tool |
| 17:01 | <DV> | right, must sleep, now ... |
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| --- | Log | closed Fri Jun 23 00:01:01 2006 |
