TheGrebs.com:IRC Logs:#xen:2006:01:16

---	Log	opened Mon Jan 16 00:00:41 2006
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05:09	<bunoc>	hi aliguori
05:10	<bunoc>	i want to play with your xenvnc, and want to see what you added to the domU's kernel. where do you put the code in the tree?
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09:22	<felix>	hi !
09:23	<felix>	is it dangerous to boot a guest domain with a "domain0" kernel ?
09:25	<riel>	no
09:25	<riel>	I've done that in the past
09:25	<felix>	thanks
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10:11	<felix>	is it possible to boot a guest VM using a CD ISO image as the root partition ?
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10:14	<sdog>	felix: if you can make it boot with a Xen kernel.
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11:29	<Xeno>	Hello , I have a question regarding live migration
11:29	<Xeno>	I am not asking about "howto" do it - this was no probelm and it worked
11:30	<Xeno>	my question is:
11:30	<Xeno>	suppose I am using a large virtual address space - say 3GB
11:30	<Xeno>	and let's say most of it is in swap
11:31	<Xeno>	Does live migration also copy the pages which are in swap ?
11:32	<riel>	no
11:32	<riel>	your block devices need to be accessible from both physical systems
11:32	<Xeno>	so Do I lose these pages?
11:32	<Xeno>	and suppose I am working mostly with network and NOT with block devices?
11:33	<Xeno>	(which is really the situation in my case : this is a networking server app)
11:34	<Xeno>	I did take a look at the code - linux_save.c; and indeed I did not see there
11:34	<Xeno>	that there was an access to swap , but it seems strange to me because aren't
11:35	<Xeno>	we losing pages which are swapped to disk in an application which uses virtaul addresses heavily
11:35	<Xeno>	?
11:36	<riel>	swap isn't known to Xen
11:36	<riel>	the swap device is just another block device
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11:37	<Xeno>	but there is swapping I assume , when using Xen; And the bottom line is
11:37	<riel>	where is your Linux virtual machine swapping to ?
11:37	<Xeno>	that I am losing pages in such a case (pages which are swapped) ; isn't it so?
11:39	<Xeno>	regarding : where is your Linux virtual machine swapping to ? - I don't know; you mean there is no swapping in DomU ?
11:39	<Xeno>	and we are limited to physical memory? it doesn't seem to me the case
11:44	<demon>	individual domains can page for themselves
11:44	<demon>	but Xen itself doesn't know about that, in part because Xen itself has no concept of block devices
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11:45	<Xeno>	guest domains get memory from the hypervisor if I am not wrong
11:45	<demon>	yes, physical memory
11:45	<riel>	Xeno: if you don't know how your system is configured, it'll be hard for us to give you definitive answers on what your setup will do
11:46	<demon>	but if they want to page to disk, they have to have their own swap devices, Xen has no involvement
11:46	<demon>	Xen only deals in CPU and memory... the virtual network and block devices are totally abstract to it
11:47	<Xeno>	riel: the defaul MakeWorld with redhat image ; but I think more important is for me to understand: there is no such thing as a virtual memory for a guest ? is it so ?
11:47	<demon>	no, each guest domain handles virtual memory for itself
11:48	<Xeno>	and does each domain have a swap ?
11:48	<demon>	if you configure them as such
11:48	<demon>	that's up to you
11:48	<Xeno>	(can be shared with other )
11:48	<riel>	only if you configure it to have swap
11:48	<demon>	no, DO NOT share them
11:48	<riel>	no, not shared with other domains
11:48	<demon>	sharing swap == deadly
11:48	<Xeno>	riel: ok
11:48	<Xeno>	riel and demon: so when running live migration
11:49	<Xeno>	what about the pages in swap ?
11:49	<Xeno>	are they lost ? this is what puzzles me
11:49	<demon>	the swap device will need to be migrated along with the rest
11:49	<Xeno>	what do you mean? can you be more specific ?
11:49	<demon>	if it's bound to a local block device, then you need to abstract it somehow (through gnbd or something)
11:50	<demon>	or put on a SAN or something
11:50	<Xeno>	I see
11:50	<Xeno>	OK this clears things;
11:50	<demon>	because those pages are part of its memory, if that goes away, things will quickly go bad.
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11:51	<Xeno>	OK; thnks ; another question: regrding live migration
11:51	<Xeno>	It takes about 20-100 ms to start the kernel image on the other side
11:51	<Xeno>	since on the other side it start to "live"
11:51	<Xeno>	isn
11:51	<Xeno>	sorry:
11:52	<Xeno>	isn't there is a danger that it's pages will be "dirtied"
11:52	<Xeno>	while the process
11:52	<Xeno>	of migratiom wasn't finished yet?
11:52	<riel>	that is why Xen does migration in phases
11:52	<riel>	first it copies all pages, which takes some time (say 1 minute)
11:53	<Xeno>	I saw the iteration in the code
11:53	<riel>	then it copies the pages that changed since the first copy - this will be way fewer pages and the copy can go faster (say 15 seconds)
11:53	<riel>	since this interval is shorter, even fewer pages will be dirtied
11:53	<Xeno>	I know
11:53	<riel>	and things will iterate faster and faster
11:53	<riel>	for the final copy, the domain is suspended
11:53	<Xeno>	But it starts to live on the other side
11:53	<riel>	it does not run
11:53	<riel>	after the final copy, it is resumed on the other side
11:54	<riel>	during the final copy - nothing runs
11:54	<Xeno>	you mean on the target?
11:54	<Xeno>	the target is suspended?
11:54	<riel>	yes, both target and source are suspended during the final copy
11:55	<Xeno>	riel: thnks a lot; this explains everthing
11:56	<Xeno>	Third question (and last) regarding live migration : I saw work and code
11:56	<Xeno>	of Jacob from Denmark (forgot his surname)
11:57	<Xeno>	regarding self migration (in nomadBios and in Xen)
11:57	<Xeno>	which means that not domain0 is managing
11:57	<thelsdj>	anyone have a clue why changeset 8525 crashes host when creating guest domains? i could try removing parts of that patch to see if i can track it down though it is a pretty large one, which it was broken up a bit more
11:57	<Xeno>	the migration ; is there any adantage for such an attitude and are there any
11:58	<Xeno>	chances it will be adopted (according to your feelings) by Xen?
11:59	<Xeno>	Jacob Gorm Hansen is the full name
12:01	<riel>	Xeno: I guess it cleans up the code and reduces locking complications in Xen
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12:02	<Xeno>	riel: I see (but it seems to me that maybe it has complications of his own ;
12:02	<Xeno>	because
12:03	<riel>	no doubt, everything involving migration has complications ;)
12:03	<Xeno>	the self management itself also dirties pages...
12:03	<riel>	yes, but if those pages are dedicated to migration, you know you don't need them on the other side
12:03	<Xeno>	well , I will take a look at his code more deeply
12:03	<riel>	because by the time you the other side starts running, the migration is finished
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12:30	<thelsdj>	hrm, appears a windows vmx maxes out cpu usage when idle, strange
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12:34	<riel>	thelsdj: it's probably polling the keyboard or doing something dumb like that
12:35	<thelsdj>	yea and as soon as i connect via windows terminal services it stops, then if i leave wts idle it runs up the cpu again heh
12:36	<riel>	heh, so maybe it's wts eating the CPU
12:39	<thelsdj>	hrm, guess i could disable wts and reboot and see if cpu still goes up
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13:10	<thelsdj>	ok thats just annoying xen needs grub but the xm-test image needs lilo to be built, and lilo install seems to be broken on gentoo (atleast amd64)
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13:50	<Xeno>	Is there any real or other reason for that in Vt-x files (like in vmx.c)
13:50	<Xeno>	we have #ifdef __x86_64__ ?
13:50	<Xeno>	As I understand there are currently only 2 Vt-x processors ,662 and 672 (both 64 bit)
13:50	<Xeno>	And intel said it will not continue with IA32 (apart from Yona)
13:50	<aliguori>	Xeno, but they can run in 32 bit mode
13:50	<aliguori>	Xeno, so you can run a VT-enabled processor in only 32 bit mode
13:50	<Xeno>	So it seems that Intel Virtualization Support will be only for 64 bits.
13:51	<aliguori>	no
13:51	<@MarkW>	Xeno: The new Yonah (Core Duo) chips will be 32 bit and (eventually) VT enabled
13:51	<aliguori>	howdy MarkW
13:51	<@MarkW>	aliguori: yo, 'sup?
13:51	<Xeno>	Markw: thanks ,this is new to me
13:51	<aliguori>	MarkW, just procrastinating making slides :-)
13:52	<aliguori>	to the last possible minute
13:52	<@MarkW>	aliguori: Sounds good to me :-)
13:52	<@MarkW>	Xeno: also Xen's VT support allows both 32-bit and 64-bit guests under 64-bit hosts
13:52	<aliguori>	MarkW, the framebuffer is inches away from being good enough to integrate into Xen.. just a few cleanups are needed but all the functionality is there
13:52	<@MarkW>	Xeno: although I imagine the ifdefs you saw refer to whether it's 64-bit VT processor
13:52	<@MarkW>	aliguori: Fantastic news!
13:53	<@MarkW>	aliguori: well done
13:53	<Xeno>	MarkW: I suppose so
13:53	<aliguori>	MarkW, thanks
13:53	<@MarkW>	aliguori: I'm currently implementing pseudo-"DCSS segments" for Xen
13:53	<aliguori>	:-)
13:53	<@MarkW>	aliguori: It'll enable the zSeries DCSS shared memory block driver to work directly.
13:54	<aliguori>	i'll have to ask you more about that, gotta run to a meeting now though, bbiab
13:54	<@MarkW>	aliguori: Eventually without source code changes, I hope.
13:54	<@MarkW>	aliguori: cya.
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16:02	<thelsdj>	hmm xm-test still fails to build for me with the new patch, now i'm gettig this: http://thelsdj.org/xm-test-error.txt
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16:10	<thelsdj>	tab_: any luck getting past 8525 changeset? tried breaking that patch up into logical chunks but failed so so far i haven't figured anything out yet
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16:50	<sdague>	thelsdj: you trying to build xm-test for paravirtual or vt?
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16:54	<thelsdj>	sdague: i did use --enable-vmx-support as i do have a vt chip
16:54	<sdague>	vmx support isn't fully baked
16:55	<thelsdj>	ok i'll give it a try without to see if it fixes that problem
16:55	<sdague>	stekloff is working on that some, but it is in way early stages
16:55	<thelsdj>	thanks for the fyi, how if i could just figure out this damn changeset 8525 thing
16:56	<thelsdj>	kinda annoying i can't use anything past 8524
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---	Log	closed Tue Jan 17 00:00:25 2006