TheGrebs.com:IRC Logs:#xen:2005:05:16

---	Log	opened Mon May 16 00:00:31 2005
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03:43	mael	hi
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11:13	bunoc	hello. i am using bk to pull the -unstable. in bk, is there anyway to find exactly when a specific file was updated in the repo?
11:14	bunoc	(i am not used to bk)
11:14	hollis	bk revtool <file>
11:16	bunoc	hollis: great, but it seems that only shows the day that file is committed, not when it was push in?
11:17	bunoc	how can we know when that file was pushed in?
11:18	hollis	what do you mean "pushed in"? you mean when that changeset made it to the "main" repository?
11:18	hollis	I mean, it was committed when it was committed
11:18	knewt	i'd guess he means when it got merged into the -unstable repo, yep
11:19	bunoc	knewt: yes, that is it
11:19	bunoc	i look at the changeset. it seems that the code are pulled from many trees
11:20	bunoc	but that only shows the time when it was first committed in the original tree, not when it was merged into -unstable?
11:21	bunoc	it seems there is no such information stored in the tree ?
11:21	Tv	not really, no
11:21	Tv	what you can do is look for a merge changeset
11:21	tessier	Should I be running stable or unstable if I actually want to try to use Xen to get some work done?
11:22	Tv	but clean merges don't generate those
11:22	bunoc	Tv: where is the merge changeset?
11:22	bunoc	at xen.bkbits.net?
11:22	Tv	tags will tell the last release before it got merged
11:22	bunoc	i looked, but the information is not detailed enough
11:22	tessier	I know traditional wisdom says stable but sometimes with open source projects that advance very rapidly the latest cvs/svn/bk pull can be more stable than the latest "stable" build.
11:22	Tv	bunoc: where the rest the changesets are..
11:22	hollis	tessier: use stable
11:22	knewt	bunoc: right now -testing is the best bet for stability
11:23	hollis	unstable doesn't even compile quite frequently
11:23	bunoc	knewt: i am not askng about stable ;). that is tessier asked
11:23	tessier	hollis: ok
11:24	knewt	bunoc: whoops. not paying enough attention g
11:24	bunoc	i am making a file-based image. is there anyway to make partitions into a file?
11:24	bunoc	normally we just mkfs <file>, then there is no partitions inside that file
11:25	Tv	bunoc: so use multiple files
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11:25	bunoc	Tv: yes, just wonder if it is possible to do that or not
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11:25	Tv	not just possible, better than trying to kludge partitions in loopbacks
11:25	Tv	though lvm is the best thing since sliced bread
11:26	knewt	bunoc: which file were you looking at? just want to try something
11:26	Tv	I configured one box so it can boot either with xen, with the "main" host in domU, or the main host natively.
11:26	Tv	That rocks.
11:27	bunoc	knewt: for example Config.mk
11:28	bunoc	Tv: what is kludge partition?
11:29	Tv	bunoc: verb, not noun
11:29	Tv	bunoc: also, dict(1)
11:29	hollis	bunoc: it's a real PITA to loopback mount a filesystem from a partition in a file
11:30	bunoc	kludge? never seen that word before. also cannot look it up in my dictionary
11:31	bunoc	(sorry, english is not my native language)
11:32	knewt	bunoc: ok, you can use the browser on xen.bkbits.net. find the file you want to look at and you can see which changesets the file has been involved in on -unstable
11:37	bunoc	knewt: yes that works, but same result as "bk revtool <file>"
11:38	knewt	bunoc: you're looking at the changeset list, not the revision list, for the file, right? they give different info
11:39	bunoc	knewt: sorry if i dont express my idea clearly. i am not used to bk. my question is: when a specific file was pushed in -unstable.
11:43	knewt	for instance, for Config.mk:
11:43	knewt	revisions: 1.1 / 20 march -- 1.2 / 2 april -- 1.3 / 2 april -- 1.4 / 15 april
11:43	knewt	changesets: 1.1236.1.105 / 22 march -- 1.236.1.199 / 2 april -- 1.236.1.200 / 2 april -- 1.1305 / 15 april
11:44	knewt	so the first revision was made on the 20th march, but didn't make it to -unstable until 2 days later
11:44	knewt	i think that's right, anyway
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11:51	bunoc2	knewt, how can we know that 1.1 rev corresponds to cset 1.1236.1.205?
11:52	bunoc2	i dont understand where this number 1.1236.1.205 is from? how bk created that number?
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12:47	hollis	bunoc2: that's the changeset number. bk invented it
12:47	hollis	bunoc2: you can use bk r2c and c2r to convert between the two
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13:20	tessier	It is possible to boot the xen hypervisor and domain0 under vmware?
13:28	riel	it should be, in theory
13:28	riel	but it can't be efficient
13:28	riel	vmware wants the same address space as the xen hypervisor ;)
13:29	yosh	tessier: are you then going to run uml in domainU ?
13:29	yosh	;)
13:29	tessier	A friend of mine said he booted xen under vmware.
13:29	tessier	I didn't believe him.
13:29	tessier	I thought it would choke for sure as soon as xen tried to grab ring 0
13:30	tessier	Since vmware already had it.
13:30	aliguori	tessier: no, vmware emulates a ring 0
13:30	aliguori	that should be fine
13:30	tessier	ah
13:30	aliguori	i'd imagine the oddness would be in xen using ring 1
13:30	tessier	That actually makes sense now.
13:31	aliguori	vmware might support ring 1 operations but i imagine it's not tested all that well
13:31	aliguori	i can't think of another os that uses ring 1
13:34	hollis	I hear OS/2 did :)
13:34	aliguori	hehe, why doesn't that surprise me :-)
13:34	aliguori	perhaps that's why it's so hard to get OS/2 running in vmware or virtualpc
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13:36	tessier	I didn't realize PC's had 4 separate rings
13:36	tessier	Is that an artifact of using two bits to describe them or something like that?
13:36	mael_	hi aliguori
13:37	aliguori	mael_: howdy
13:37	hollis	tessier: x86 has four rings, and it's intentional
13:37	mael_	are you over-loaded today?
13:38	aliguori	tessier: it's because it was required to compete for DoD contracts..
13:38	aliguori	mael_: what's up?
13:38	tessier	Funny how nobody really uses all 4.
13:38	hollis	aliguori: are you sure? I'm willing to bet there are many non-x86 processors in use at the DoD
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13:38	tessier	hollis: All with at least 4 levels of protection?
13:39	mael_	well I was about to compile uClibc and busybox
13:39	hollis	tessier: no, I haven't heard of another processor with such a design (though I'm sure they exist)
13:39	hollis	tessier: that's my point
13:39	aliguori	hollis: the way it was explained to me, is that when they were designing the chip, one of the requirements was to be able to have processor separation so you could have like top secret, classified, confidential, and unclassified...
13:40	aliguori	but there might be a considerable amount of myths about the 4 rings at this point :-)
13:40	hollis	aliguori: yeah, I don't buy it
13:40	aliguori	this was from one of the intel guys when he came to lecture in one of my classes (actually, i think it was Arun..)
13:40	hollis	hm, ok...
13:41	tessier	Was he the Lord Of The Rings?
13:42	aliguori	we also read a paper explaining why intel uses little endian :-)
13:42		* hollis winces
13:42	hollis	aliguori: and what did that say?
13:42	aliguori	it goes way back to the days when intel made calculuator processors
13:42	mael_	has any of you a practical experience of virtuozzo?
13:42	mael_	this stuff seems impressive
13:42	aliguori	using that format happened to save some wiring for doing adds or something
13:43	hollis	aliguori: one of the Research guys was there when IBM/Intel were designing the PC, and he blames himself for not talking them out of it
13:43	hollis	he said it was simply due to bit numbering. calculators were not mentioned ;)
13:49	aliguori	ah, here's the paper
13:49	aliguori	http://inventors.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://www.dotpoint.com/xnumber/Microcomputer%5Finvention.htm
13:49	aliguori	it was the JUMP instruction, not the add
13:51	hollis	ha, even he says "regrettably" :)
13:51	aliguori	yeah, that's what's always stuck out to me about that paper :-)
13:51	aliguori	it's an interesting paper...
13:51		* hollis nominates "The lack of [endian] standardization has been a problem in the industry." for an Understatement Award
13:51	aliguori	hehe
13:52	aliguori	it really surprised me that the microprocessor pretty much grew out of the fact that intel was a memory company and wanted to expand
13:52	aliguori	it was sort of like dumb luck
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14:05		* riel suspects that having 4 security rings is pretty common
14:05	riel	after all, you need 4 rings to run VMS
14:06	riel	and VMS has run on a few different architectures ...
14:12	murble	aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa/win 14
14:13	murble	bugger
14:23	tessier	aliguori: MS too was in the right place at the right time...
14:24	tessier	riel: What architectures does vms run on besides Alpha and whatever the original processor was?
14:24	hollis	apparently Itanium
14:25	hollis	oops I meant "Itanic" ;)
14:27	tessier	Itanic is definitely the common name for it. You can't read a trade rag about it without them cracking that one.
14:27	tessier	I have never actually seen a box running an Itanium nor have I seen Itanium chips advertised anywhere I shop.
14:27	tessier	Itanium seems to be Unobtanium
14:28	riel	tessier: VAX, MIPS, Alpha and Itanic
14:28	tessier	I am amazed a company can survive such a failure. But I guess Intel is a pretty darn big company.
14:28	riel	Intel will survive it just fine, I'm more worried about HP
14:28	tessier	MIPS and Itanic eh? Didn't know that. What processor did VAX originally run on? Was it a 68k?
14:29	riel	tessier: VAX is a processor
14:29	riel	it is _the_ original 32 bit processor ;)
14:29	mael_	tessier: well just because you don't find itanium at next door reseller doesn't mean it has no market
14:29	tessier	Oh, it is a processor itself. I see. I was thinking 68k didn't have protection levels. So that makes sense.
14:29	mael_	thought it seems a pretty small one for sure :)
14:29	tessier	mael: True but that means it is a very niche market which means very expensive chip which traditionally don't do well for the manufacturer.
14:30	mael_	hmm I don't like this kind of reasonning very much
14:30	tessier	I missed the whole vax generation by a few years. I had a couple of VMS accounts but never really learned how to use them. Never had administrator rights on a vax/vms box.
14:30	tessier	Once I found un*x/Linux VMS seemed to painful anyhow so I never looked back.
14:30	mael_	this is the kind of stuff that can lead to wintel domination without choice
14:31	mael_	(MH2C)
14:34	riel	HP appears to still have 95% of the Itanium market, btw
14:36		* tessier is amazed that we finally have dual core chips
15:18	mael_	aliguori: yet another compile error
15:18	mael_	(and I don't use the daily snapshots)
15:18	aliguori	mael_: compiling what?
15:18	mael_	uClibC/busybox using buildroot
15:19	aliguori	oh, that's odd
15:19	aliguori	what compiler?
15:19	mael_	I'm not yet able to compile vmtools
15:19	aliguori	well....
15:19	aliguori	vm-tools is a problem right now
15:19	aliguori	xen-unstable has gone through massive changes
15:19	mael_	hehe I guess you're in trouble adapting it to rusty changes
15:19	aliguori	no
15:19	aliguori	it's not rusty's changes actually
15:19	mael_	gcc 3.3.5
15:20	aliguori	but mike wray has a different tree
15:20	mael_	ah?
15:20	aliguori	that we're currently working out of
15:20	aliguori	yeah, it's linked off the wiki
15:20	aliguori	and i haven't updated a public version of vm-tools for it.. we're in a bit of a pickle
15:20	aliguori	it'll probably stay that way until 3.0-testing is released
15:20	aliguori	b/c things are just changing too rapidly
15:21	mael_	yeah I do think this is a general xen problem
15:21		* mael_ feels being on a moving ground all the time
15:21	mael_	every time I think I grasp so idea, it's obsolete
15:21	mael_	-so+some
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15:32	riel	ahhh, Makefile is screwed up in -rc4
15:32	riel	that's why things weren't compiling any more
15:33	mael_	:)
15:33	mael_	that's a good news :)
15:33	mael_	you're not the one responsible for that mess, are you?
15:34	riel	nope
15:34	riel	just ran into it
15:34	mael_	then that's a good news :)
15:34	mael_	now you can do something else while it's fixed :)
15:34	mael_	s/while/until/
15:36	riel	no, FC4 freeze is soon ;)
15:36	riel	I fixed it instead
15:36	mael_	hehe
15:45	mael_	riel: will Xen be integrated in FC4?
15:46	mael_	I mean officialy
15:46	mael_	+l
15:47	riel	what do you mean by "officially" ?
15:48	mael_	Will Xen packages be integrated in FC4 official package pool?
15:48	mael_	(or what is equivalent to Debian package pool in FC world)
15:49	mael_	I know official support is not a meaningful stuff for FC as this is mainly the "test" distro for RH
15:50	mael_	but if the package is "mainstream" in FC distro and FC kernels supporting Xen are realeased, I guess this is an official package
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15:58	riel	mael: they already are
15:58	riel	mael: they're in the FC4 test releases and will be in the FC4 final release
15:58	mael_	ok
15:59	mael_	which version of Xen? 2.0.5? or the unstable branch?
16:03	riel	unstable
16:04	riel	somebody needs to test it
16:04	mael_	yeah that's right
16:04	riel	besides, it seems to work pretty well most of the time
16:04	riel	and things like SMP guests and VT support are nice to have
16:04	matta	riel: you get anywhere with the bug I sent you?
16:05	riel	matta: I'll upgrade to a newer upstream Xen to see if that makes it go away
16:05	mael_	and it changes so much that an average user just like me can't follow/solve the problems
16:05	matta	slab errors
16:05	riel	matta: but I'm not actively debugging Xen ATM
16:05	matta	oh, just packaging
16:05		* riel is preparing for the Red Hat Summit, and doing some other stuff
16:05	matta	and accepting the reports
16:06	riel	besides, if when I do Xen development, I look at bugzilla.xensource.com first ;)
16:06	riel	that's where the code is maintained, after all - so that's where I try to help out
16:06	matta	i'm pretty sure it was a FC4 kernel problem anyway
16:06	riel	matta: quite probable ;)
16:06	riel	oh wait, that happened with the non-xen kernel too?
16:06	riel	e100 driver ?
16:07	matta	I noted I had gotten the same errors under stock FC4 kernel but someone still moved the bug to you because it was a -xen0 kernel
16:07	matta	yes actually
16:07	riel	ahhhh right
16:07	matta	was there a problem that was fixed recently?
16:07	matta	actually, might be e1000
16:08	matta	it is e1000
16:08	riel	I'm not seeing changes to that driver in the diff between -rc3 and -rc4
16:08	matta	eh, was worth a shot
16:08	matta	for now i'm back at FC3 and running stable :)
16:09	riel	can't blame you
16:09	riel	if the bug also happens with the upstream kernel, lkml may be worth a try, or bugzilla.kernel.org
16:09		* riel goes back to some non-code parts of his job
16:09	matta	it works fine with -testing and 2.6.11
16:09	matta	could be the .12 patch to the FC4 kernel
16:10	matta	or any other of the numerous patches
16:10	riel	yeah, the e1000 driver changed in -rc4
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16:18		* riel reassigns the bug to a driver guy and hopes for the best ;)
16:18	matta	heh
16:18	matta	i bet that is it
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20:22	bunoc2	\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\
20:26	mikegrb	/\|\|\|\|\|\|\|
20:33	rusty	mikegrb: I think \|\|\|\|\|\|\_ is next, actually.
20:33	mikegrb	oh :<
20:33	bunoc2	eh sorry, my cat jumpped to the keyboard :)
20:35	rusty	bunoc2: Oh, I assumed this was Ascii dominos.
20:35	bunoc2	no, it wasnt :)
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21:33	surriel	sweet, akpm took the Makefile fix into -mm
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---	Log	closed Tue May 17 00:00:04 2005