TheGrebs.com:IRC Logs:#xen:2005:04:20

---	Log	opened Wed Apr 20 00:00:03 2005
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03:00	mael	hi
03:01	@cw	howdy
03:11	hebutterworth	\| hi
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03:43	caker	!skas-2.6?
03:43	caker	whoops, mcm
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09:13	knewt	anyone know if the move of ACPI into dom0 has happened in -unstable yet?
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10:15	aliguori-	mornin'
10:18	rharper	aliguori: morning
10:19	aliguori-	rharper: you wouldn't happen to know ash scripting would you?
10:20	rharper	aliguori: I indeed am quite familiar with ash
10:20	aliguori-	you use some different shell contructs than I'm used to.. i wondering if you know if they're available on ash (like {})
10:20	aliguori-	awesome :-)
10:20	rharper	heh, no, arrays arent available in ash
10:20	rharper	=(
10:20	rharper	do we need to be ash compat ?
10:20	aliguori-	hmm, well, that's ok
10:21	aliguori-	well
10:21	rharper	I can respin
10:21	rharper	will be uglier
10:21	aliguori-	i want to be, but don't worry about it for now
10:21	aliguori-	i'm going to do an ash-compat pass at some point in the future
10:21	aliguori-	b/c i want to make sure vm runs under busybox :-)
10:22	rharper	so, ash supports things like ${foo}, thats just extra scoping, ash doesnt support foo=( `ls` ) , or ${foo[i]}
10:22	rharper	yeah, arrays have to come out for busybox
10:22	aliguori-	there's other stuff in vm right now that prevent that.. thought i had removed them but apparently i didn't check it in
10:22	rharper	I can rewrite for busybox sh
10:22	riel	ash is like bash, but with less richer syntax
10:22	rharper	and no arrays =(
10:22	aliguori-	yeah, and functions can't use the function keyword.
10:22	rharper	ugh, yes
10:22	riel	lack of arrays is annoying
10:23	aliguori-	i've never actually used shell arrays.. and here i thought i used obscure shell stuff :-)
10:23	rharper	aliguori: in my former job we abused arrays to no end, it was quite fun, almost perl-like in its obscurity
10:24	rharper	oh, IIRC, ash doesn do ${!p} either
10:24	rharper	so no function pointers
10:24		* knewt played with them recently as a bit of fun in implementing perl "split" in pure bash shell script
10:24	knewt	:)
10:25	rharper	aliguori: no math in ash/bb, $((count+2))
10:25	aliguori-	rharper: i didn't even know you could do function pointers.. i probably would have just eval'd to simulate it
10:25	rharper	aliguori: yeah, thats what you have to do in ash
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10:25	aliguori-	rharper: i have to check my root image and see if i've got bc in there
10:26	rharper	you can use let
10:26	aliguori-	nope.
10:26	rharper	let i=i+1
10:26	aliguori-	indeed. neat
10:52	mael	hi aliguori
10:53	mael	interesting conversation about DoS on xen lately
10:54	mael	it seems that ressources sharing is still not implemented on every aspect of xen architecture
10:55	mael	(I mean with quota/threshold/sharing algorithms and so on)
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10:57	mael	mmh either I'm a truly unlucky man or either I'm so boring they manage to get a tricky system to avoid my questions :)
10:57		* mael had the same "reset by peer" error a few days ago with rusty
11:00	mael	well, time to go anyway
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11:02	rharper	haha
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11:06	plars	what's the config parameter for multiple cpus in xenU?
11:06	plars	config file that is, not kernel config
11:31	plars	ahh, vcpus
11:31	plars	rharper: did your cpumap stuff get in?
11:46	rharper	plars: not yet
11:46	rharper	grinding on some dom0 op interface details
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12:26	plars	oh cool, vcpus > cpus works already, didn't know that was the case
12:27	riel	I've been using it for months ;)
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12:43	cdub	riel: what was the vdso issue?
12:45	riel	cdub: xen0 domain hangs with roland's latest vdso changes
12:45	riel	(which are upstream)
12:45	cdub	riel: did offset change? (i didn't look upstream yet, /me looks)
12:46	riel	good question
12:48	cdub	hmm, doesn't look like it (but i don't have most current tree ATM)
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12:49	riel	the vdso is mapped at a random offset
12:49	riel	in a real vma
12:49	riel	so it can work with execshield
12:50	cdub	hrm, sounds potentially problematic, how did you work around that?
12:51	riel	I don't have it working yet ;)
12:51	cdub	ahhh, I see ;-)
12:51	cdub	riel: I'm mucking in that area right now, hence the questions ;-)
12:52	riel	arghhhhhh
12:52		* cdub ducks
12:52	riel	I need to use the i386 vsyscall.lds.S not the xen vsyscall.lds
12:52	riel	I think
12:52	cdub	riel: that's what I'm trying to fix right now
12:53	cdub	riel: xen needs proper offsets, rather than hardcoded vsyscall.lds (so the normal vsyscall.lds.S can work properly)
12:56	eigood	xen still suffers a bit from NIH
12:56	riel	nod (at cdub)
12:56	eigood	instead of writing their own scheduler, io, etc, they should just be pure linux in ring 0, and modify the linux scheduler to schedule ring1 apps, instead of userspace/ring3
12:57	eigood	including pipe support, for inter-domain communication
12:57	riel	eigood: sounds like a bad idea to me
12:57	eigood	why?
12:58	riel	there are advantages to having a small and simple hypervisor
12:58	mael	ring 1 and 2 disapeared on x86_64 arch, no?
12:58	riel	also, think about driver domains
12:58	riel	mael: but VT/Pacifica give back new rings ;)
12:58	cdub	heh, true
12:58	mael	well a 1/2 -1 ring at least
12:59		* mael is still perplex on the vmx stuff
12:59	mael	fair scheduling seem very hard to manage with vmx
12:59	eigood	riel: driver domains is like root in normal linux accessing hardware directly
13:00	mael	eigood: in dom0 yes but not in unprivileged domains, if I understand correctly
13:00	riel	eigood: not with Pacifica
13:01	riel	eigood: domains can get access to only their own PCI devices and their own memory
13:01	riel	eigood: no DMAing over other people's memory, either
13:01	mael	riel: this is through the pci grant table of pacifica?
13:02	riel	I think so
13:02	riel	but I only saw the presentation at the xen summit ;)
13:02	riel	no other info
13:02	eigood	that sounds like IPC to me
13:02	eigood	or netlink
13:02	mael	ok I couldn't really understand the difference on the pacifica powerpoint presentation
13:02	mael	this is the only document I was able to find
13:02	eigood	driver domain uses netlink to the base xen/linux in ring0, to request access to resources
13:03	mael	but it is mainly a commercial/marketing stuff
13:03	eigood	driver domains and normal domains use IPC to send data
13:03	cdub	eigood: at the cost of extra context switching
13:03	riel	eigood: the point is that the device drivers run directly in the driver domain, not in dom0
13:03	cdub	eigood: e.g. with pacifica you let hardware protect you (iommu and dev exclusion vector or whatever it was called) once it's set up
13:04	eigood	riel: where I have said that wouldn't still be the same?
13:04	eigood	oh, wait, I did.
13:04	mael	cdub: so they implemented the kind of hardware Mark's paper told about?
13:04	eigood	well, if programming a pci device allows it to read/write to other memory, something has to filter said programming to validate it.
13:05	cdub	mael: sorry, which paper?
13:05	riel	eigood: the hardware filters that
13:05	mael	cdub: the one on safe hardware sharing
13:05	eigood	well, then pacifica allows things to be faster, and could be stubbed out on such systems
13:05	eigood	but there are going to be lots of machine for quite a while yet that don't have the tech
13:05	mael	I think the conclusion was that they missed a iommu stuff
13:06	mael	(but I'm far from a good comprehension :))
13:06	cdub	amd got that, it's intel that missed iommu
13:06	riel	eigood: but do you want to optimise not-yet-ready software for hardware that might be obsolete by the time all the software features are implemented ?
13:06	mael	uh ok
13:07	mael	riel: well what about arch different than x86? what about ppc ia64 and so on?
13:08	mael	do they have the same needed hardware? (the iommu stuff)
13:08	riel	mael: ppc has an existing hypervisor interface already, which xen is being ported to
13:08	cdub	ppc isn't so crippled ;-)
13:08	mael	hehe
13:08	riel	mael: I'm not sure about ia64, but to be honest I'm not very interested in ia64 either ;)
13:08	riel	I know an ia64 won't be price effective for me, ever ;)
13:08	eigood	riel: are you suggesting that xen will no longer support pre-pacifica in the near future?
13:08	cdub	ia64 has similar VT tech coming down the pipeline
13:08	mael	what do you call hypervisor interface? is it a vmx-like stuff or a wired-hypervisor?
13:09	riel	eigood: no, those will still be supported
13:09	mael	cdub: yeah right, vt-i/vt-x
13:09	riel	eigood: it's just that driver domains don't make much sense on those domains, since they could still DMA over any other domain
13:09	eigood	riel: then such support still requires xen to validate hardware programming requests, in addition to context switches when talking to other domains
13:09	riel	eigood: no, on such an architecture you just trust your device drivers
13:10	eigood	oh, if xen doesn't already do hardware programming verification, then remove that stmt I said
13:10	riel	if you're paranoid enough to not trust your device drivers, you can buy a newer computer
13:10	eigood	but inter-domain communication already requires upcalling into xen/ring0
13:10	hollis	mael: PPC has IOMMUs, and also has processor support for hypervisors
13:10	mael	riel: well linux device drivers at least may be critized, if you're in the real-time business for example
13:10	eigood	maybe not on every put/get from a ring buffer, of course
13:11	hollis	mael: if you think in terms of "rings", normal PPC has only two: user and supervisor
13:11	mael	hollis: ok
13:11	mael	this is a specialised instructon set then?
13:11	hollis	mael: some PPC processors have basically added a third ring, hypervisor mode
13:11	riel	IMHO, if you have old hardware xen should run - but if you want new fancy things, requiring hardware support isn't unreasonable
13:11	hollis	mael: there are almost no instruction set differences
13:12	mael	hollis: ok
13:13	mael	what are the ppc processors you're talking about?
13:13	mael	I guess my powerbook has only 2 rings :)
13:13	hollis	POWER4(+), POWER5, and 970
13:13	hollis	yup
13:13	mael	too bad :)
13:13	hollis	yeah
13:13	hollis	I agree :)
13:14	mael	shitty pile of aluminium! :)
13:14	hollis	hey now! :)
13:15	mael	so, pservers have the 3 rings ones?
13:15	mael	and the new apple bi-power5 machines also
13:15	hollis	yes, but not all pSeries. POWER3 and the RS64 processors do not have hypervisor mode
13:15	hollis	"bi-power5" ?
13:15	mael	ok
13:16	mael	hold on, browsing apple website :)
13:17	mael	hum
13:17	mael	are G5 cpu power5 cpu?
13:18	hollis	no. "G5" is a 970, which is based on the POWER4 but has some newer features (like from POWER5) as well
13:18	hollis	however
13:18	hollis	Apple has disabled 970 hypervisor mode in their firmware
13:18	hollis	much to our dismay
13:19	mael	what for?
13:19	mael	it seems stupid to me
13:19	hollis	they don't need/use it
13:19	hollis	so I guess they'd rather not deal with it
13:19	hollis	I don't really know why, just guessing
13:19	mael	and you can't enable it in OF?
13:20	hollis	no, you actually can't enable it from the 970 itself
13:20	riel	Apple might be convinced to turn it on in future systems, at least their higher-end ones
13:20	hollis	when I say "firmware", I mean another chip that initializes the 970
13:20	mael	ooh
13:20	mael	that's stupid, cos otherwiser Linus would have been very interested in porting xen mainstream :)
13:21	mael	as he has a bi-G5 from what I heard
13:21	hollis	he does, yeah
13:22	mael	mmh we'll get another way ;)
13:22	mael	and you're doing such a smart/quick job on xen that it'll be mainstream in no time
13:24		* mael is counting on vt-x on desktop machines also
13:24	mael	this is going to bring a lot of ppl to virtualization I guess
13:24	soffi	whatsup guys
13:24	mael	lo soffi
13:25	soffi	I just got this amazing offer on managed hosting here in Iceland... It's just too tempting to rent and run some xenU's on it
13:26	soffi	would speed up making images all the time
13:26	mael	hehe
13:26	mael	did you had time to look over the document I sent you?
13:27	soffi	I thought renting hardware would be so expensive
13:27	soffi	Yeah I glazed at it, but out CEO is in usa and I'm doing all sorts of management as well for the next week
13:27	soffi	Lucky if I have time to eat
13:28	mael	ok
13:28	soffi	But I gotta go put some time into the images... at least the gentoo image... got all sorts of mails about it ;)
13:29	soffi	mostly unpleasant ones :)
13:29	mael	hehe
13:32	@Sir_Ahzz	so what's up guys?
13:32		* Sir_Ahzz attempts to knock some drywall dust off himself. 8-P
13:33	mael	hi Sir_Ahzz
13:35	soffi	not much
13:37	mael	well, I'm sure you all already know that SuSe pro 9.3 is out and include xen?
13:37	@Sir_Ahzz	nod
13:38	soffi	did they include any tools with it ?
13:38	soffi	y'know ?
13:38	mael	well I don't know much
13:38	mael	only what the website says
13:38	soffi	I have yet to burn the live DVD iso
13:39	mael	but I don't think they'll have vm-tools yet
13:39	soffi	vm-tools ?
13:40	mael	aliguori could probably inform us better on that topic
13:40	soffi	am I dumb? what is that
13:40	mael	aliguori's C tools
13:40	aliguori-	soffi: vm-tools is an alterative toolchain
13:40	mael	is in the topic ;)
13:40	aliguori-	writting in C
13:40	mael	hehe hello aliguori
13:40	aliguori-	they don't (yet) support the 2.0.x tree
13:40	aliguori-	hi mael
13:40		* Sir_Ahzz should get back to the drywalling soon since the client is paying him later today to continue work. 8-P
13:40	aliguori-	SuSE 9.3 is based on the 2.0.x tree IIRC
13:40	mael	mmh
13:41	@Sir_Ahzz	the toolchain definitly needs to be cluster centric IMO
13:41	soffi	ahh,, I am dumb, I don't even know what a toolchain is
13:41	mael	They're not very precise on that topic
13:41	mael	they say "the latest available version" or something like that
13:42	mael	it could be a 3.x snapshot
13:42	mael	aliguori : btw have you read what I wrote a few hours ago?
13:42	aliguori-	Sir_Ahzz: "cluster centric" is such a nebulus phrase
13:43	aliguori-	mael: probably not.. my machines been crashing frequently so i don't have much history
13:43	@Sir_Ahzz	it needs to be oriented from the perspective of managing a cluster, even if that cluster is just one machine.
13:43	mael	aliguori : ok
13:43	@Sir_Ahzz	not from the curent perspective of being a toolset for a single machine running xen domains.
13:43	aliguori-	Sir_Ahzz: but what's different between a cluster and a network
13:44	aliguori-	Sir_Ahzz: see, I have a slightly different approach. I think the most important thing is that they tie in well with existing management tools (such as cluster management suites)
13:45	mael	aliguori: btw I could'nt find the uclibc and busybox how to on the wiki :)
13:45	@Sir_Ahzz	I don't think any management tools really work well with the xen perspective.
13:45	mael	but I saw you talking about ash on the chan today :)
13:45	aliguori-	mael: of course not :-)
13:45	aliguori-	yeah, i keep pushing it off
13:45	@Sir_Ahzz	well i'm off get more mud on myself. 8-P
13:45	aliguori-	i'd like to wait until the next big release so that the info's up-to-date
13:45	@Sir_Ahzz	I should take pics of the closet and whatnot before it get's too far along.
13:46		* Sir_Ahzz splits for now... laters.
13:46	aliguori-	last time i looked on the wiki, i wasn't sure where to actually put it either.. so many of the pages are read-only
13:46	aliguori-	Sir_Ahzz: there are tons of industry management tools that already manage hypervisors..
13:46	aliguori-	Xen is not the first hypervisor :-)
13:47	mael	aliguori yeah that's true the wiki is mostly read only
13:47	mael	and in the same time Ian keep on telling ppl to write stuff there ;)
13:47	aliguori-	so i didn't see any obvious place to put a busybox howto
13:48	aliguori-	yeah, i mean, all you can write to is the distro support page and who's doing what it seems
13:48	aliguori-	and the faq
13:48	aliguori-	i've never seen a wiki with so many read-only pages
13:48	aliguori-	even wikipedia only makes the front-page read only.
13:48	mael	well, I'll re-ask you questions related to the ressources management an other time
13:48	eigood	said industry management tools are not free tho, right?
13:49	aliguori-	eigood: define free
13:49	mael	it's almost time for me to leave
13:49	eigood	free software
13:49		* mael is heading to cambridge, uk
13:49	eigood	DFSG
13:49	aliguori-	eigood: nope
13:49	eigood	mael: riding a pumpkin chucker?
13:49	aliguori-	but i wouldn't be surprised if you started to see some
13:49	eigood	uml has been around for a bit; now with uml, we can hope to see a standard emerge
13:50	eigood	s/with uml/with xen/
13:50	aliguori-	in the past, there's been no reason to has foss tools for properitary hardware :-)
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14:07	hollis	joining the conversation late... how is UML managed?
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14:12	eigood	there are some tools for it; we stopped using uml(and switched to xen, yay!) before we started looking at management tools for it
14:13	hollis	how about creating a UML "domain" (instance? what do you call it?)? starting it, stopping it, provisioning it?
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14:14	aliguori-	hollis: uml is just a process in linux
14:15	aliguori-	you run it like a process and pass the configuration for it on the command line
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14:15	aliguori-	i guess you could nice it to do some resource control but i've never tried.
14:16	aliguori-	uml is kind of strange because it doesn't have a real scheduler. processes within a uml image are scheduled by the hosts scheduler
14:18	eigood	aliguori-: your wrong
14:18	aliguori-	eigood: about what?
14:18	eigood	it not having a scheduler
14:18	eigood	it's always had one
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14:20	eigood	where is space and enter?
14:20	caker	next to the any key
14:21	aliguori-	eigood: my understand of uml is that each process in a uml guest is also a process in the host
14:22	aliguori-	eigood: uml decides which one goes next but the host decides when it goes next
14:22	aliguori-	so it's not a real scheduler
14:23	aliguori-	i'm having trouble finding a paper about it
14:23	aliguori-	i could be wrong
14:23	eigood	not quite
14:23	caker	SKAS mode works differently, but it's the same deal -- the host distributes CPU time to UML, and UML uses Linux's scheduler
14:23	aliguori-	i read the uml papers a few years ago
14:23	eigood	uml straces everything. so the host can only schedule the host-based process is not STOP'd waiting on uml to do it's magic
14:23	eigood	then, with skas, things are a bit more complex
14:24	caker	Jeff recently virtualized the Linux scheduler -> http://user-mode-linux.sourceforge.net/diary.html
14:25	aliguori-	ah, this is interesting
14:25	aliguori-	this solves the problem i was alluding to quite nicely
14:25	aliguori-	that resource control is difficult in uml.
14:26	aliguori-	i saw that someone is giving a talk at ols about extending uml to run in ring 0 with the vmx extensions
14:32	eigood	hmm, lots of cool stuff on that diary
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---	Log	closed Thu Apr 21 00:00:37 2005