| --- | Log | opened Thu Mar 31 00:00:50 2005 |
| 00:35 | | * riel starts AIM7 on a "3 CPU" xenU guest |
| 00:37 | caker | Is it the unstable branch that has support for MP guests? |
| 00:38 | @riel | yes |
| 00:38 | caker | wow.. What's the status? Fairly stable at this point? |
| 00:40 | @riel | it often is |
| 00:41 | @riel | I think I ran into a little smp bug in page table handling |
| 00:41 | @riel | I'll send a patch to xen-devel tomorrow, for discussion |
| 00:41 | | * riel zzzzzzz |
| 00:41 | @riel | really time to sleep now ;) |
| 00:41 | @riel | aim7 will run by itself just fine |
| 01:23 | @riel | ok, aim7 is chugging along nicely |
| 01:23 | @riel | this is pretty cool |
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| --- | Log | opened Thu Mar 31 13:24:28 2005 |
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| 13:24 | -!- | Irssi: #xen: Total of 37 nicks 2 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 35 normal |
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| 14:32 | @riel | hummm, big interdiff |
| 14:32 | | * riel reads |
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| 14:33 | @riel | it might be later tonight before I upgrade the xen code in rawhide ;) |
| 14:33 | @riel | almost 5000 lines of patch to go through |
| 14:34 | @riel | luckily most of it seems to be the removal of the batched pagetable updates, so that's easy |
| 14:35 | --- | ---> niv [~niv@bi01p1.co.us.ibm.com] has joined #xen |
| 14:37 | rocket | I am interested in getting an understanding of xen and kernel internals and things like that is there anywhere you guys suggest I start looking for information to get up to speed? |
| 14:38 | --- | ---> caker [~caker@ns.theshore.net] has joined #xen |
| 14:38 | hollis | rocket: have a look at the papers on the Xen website |
| 14:39 | rocket | hollis: sounds good .. and for the kernel internals, etc? is there a good book to read? online docs? |
| 14:39 | @riel | Understanding The Linux Kernel |
| 14:39 | rocket | riel: I am assuming thats a book title |
| 14:39 | @riel | yeah, it is |
| 14:40 | rocket | ok |
| 14:40 | rocket | sorry I am such a newbie in this area .. its just something I have always been interested in .. and need to find a place to start :p |
| 14:46 | @riel | do you know what syscalls are ? |
| 14:46 | @riel | xenolinux makes "hypercalls" into xen - very similar to syscalls |
| 14:47 | LaidBack_01 | hey, everytime I try to get xen 2.0.5 to work, my kernel hangs. |
| 14:47 | LaidBack_01 | now 2.0.4 worked fine. |
| 14:47 | LaidBack_01 | anyone else run into issues similar? |
| 14:47 | rocket | yeah .. I have a rudimentary understanding of syscalls .. |
| 14:47 | LaidBack_01 | I've read the mailing list on this, but only one other had the problem it seemed. |
| 14:48 | rocket | riel: "understanding the linux kernel" is kind of old is that ok? |
| 14:48 | @riel | it explains the concepts behind the code |
| 14:48 | @riel | instead of just explaining the code |
| 14:49 | rocket | ah ok .. thats better anyway :p |
| 14:49 | @riel | if you want a nice explanation of the code, and don't need an explanation of the concepts behind it, Robert Love's book is great |
| 14:49 | @riel | but if you're new to OS hacking, you may want a book with a bit more background info |
| 14:49 | rocket | probably want the background info .. :p |
| 14:50 | rocket | and do these books cover the assembly parts very much? |
| 14:52 | @riel | only a little bit, I think |
| 14:54 | rocket | ok |
| 14:54 | | * rocket is attempting to get grsecurity working with xen .. but knows at the moment I am out of my league :/ |
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| 15:01 | @riel | rocket: why? |
| 15:01 | rocket | why am I out of my league or why am I trying to get grsecurity working? |
| 15:02 | @riel | why are you trying to get grsecurity working ? |
| 15:02 | @riel | and, which parts ? ;) |
| 15:02 | @riel | if you get stuck on PaX, you can just take the execshield patches from fedora rawhide |
| 15:03 | rocket | well mostly the acl's and process listing parts .. |
| 15:03 | rocket | but I thought it would be cool to have grsecurity enabled xen kernels .. to build more secure firewall xen instances etc |
| 15:05 | rocket | I was trying to look at the grsecurity patch and just grab the i386 arch specific stuff and apply it to the xen arch .. but there are some files missing/changed that I dont understand what I need to do .. so I know I need a better understanding of the kernel |
| 15:05 | rocket | basically its a pet project to learn OS hacking better :) |
| 15:06 | @riel | you can do much better than that |
| 15:06 | @riel | run a bridging firewall, without any IP addresses at all |
| 15:06 | @riel | access it via the xen console |
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| 15:07 | rocket | yeah I know I can do that .. but i was also thinking of more secure dns/web/mail server instances .. etc .. since I dont have a ton of hardware .. I like the virtualization concepts .. |
| 15:07 | knewt | is acpi support in -unstable yet? it's that that's stopping me from putting it on my laptop |
| 15:10 | @riel | rocket: there's no security like read only filesystems, enforced by the hypervisor ;) |
| 15:11 | @riel | rocket: ideally even a kernel exploit should not compromise the virtual machine's most important things |
| 15:11 | rocket | riel: true :) |
| 15:13 | rocket | but when you get into needing rw filesystems etc or giving greater control .. there are some nice features in grsecurity .. and again it is a pet project .. |
| 15:13 | @riel | it'll be a good learning experience, true |
| 15:13 | @riel | so you should probably try porting it |
| 15:14 | jeroney | rocket: this is RBAC just use SELinux and do MAC |
| 15:14 | jeroney | rocket: you can get the same effect |
| 15:15 | rocket | jeroney: I dont doubt that one bit .. in fact I totally agree .. but i want to learn how to do it .. if that makes sense? |
| 15:16 | @riel | rocket: you may want to talk with some of the people on #kernelnewbies |
| 15:16 | @riel | they're doing similar projects |
| 15:16 | jeroney | hmm...well I would say start with the books, and a couple months from now you'll be be able to just jump into it...I would start by writing an LSM for the kernel |
| 15:16 | rocket | ok |
| 15:17 | rocket | jeroney: sounds good |
| 15:23 | eigood | ladbac: well, considering you haven't told us anything |
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| 15:23 | eigood | LaidBack_01: well, considering you haven't told us anything |
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| 15:24 | eigood | riel: I've got a new dbs-ng(patch management tool used by several debian packageS) that makes upgrading to new upstreams fairly easy |
| 15:25 | eigood | it's destined to become dpkg-source v2, once I finish rewriting it from perl to c |
| 15:25 | eigood | </pimp> |
| 15:25 | @riel | eigood: oh, applying patches isn't the problem |
| 15:25 | @riel | eigood: I just read the patch to make sure the content doesn't conflict with eg. my execshield changes |
| 15:26 | @riel | or with the page table changes introduced in 2.6.12-rc1 |
| 15:28 | eigood | I maintain separate debian patches against upstream(in debian/patches), so removing ones applied upstream is simple(in theory) |
| 15:28 | eigood | my patch system also supports 'dependencies', which is used for ordering |
| 15:29 | eigood | of course, I hardly ever release stuff, ... |
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| 15:52 | --- | Channel: mode/#xen [+o Sir_Ahzz] by ChanServ |
| 16:00 | --- | Netsplit oxygen.oftc.net <-> jupiter.oftc.net quits: hollis, Beirdo, muligone, VS_ChanLog, @Sir_Ahzz |
| 16:00 | --- | Netsplit oxygen.oftc.net <-> jupiter.oftc.net quits: DEac-, rharper, LaidBack_01, mdday, demon, mael, Shaun, muli, surriel, schweeb, (+6 more, use /NETSPLIT to show all of them) |
| 16:01 | --- | Netsplit over, joins: Beirdo, schweeb, VS_ChanLog, Arnald, eigood, surriel, hbaum, rharper, DEac-, mdday (+8 more) |
| 16:02 | --- | <<-- DEac- [~deac@xdsl-213-196-206-77.netcologne.de] has quit (Quit: Leaving) |
| 16:02 | --- | Netsplit over, joins: @Sir_Ahzz, hollis, muligone |
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| 16:19 | Mark | Sir_Ahzz: you still about? |
| 16:19 | @Sir_Ahzz | yeah |
| 16:19 | @Sir_Ahzz | just came back inside. |
| 16:19 | @Sir_Ahzz | finished repairing the chainsaw. |
| 16:19 | Mark | That's not something you can say every day! |
| 16:20 | Mark | (well maybe *you* can - but I can't :-) |
| 16:21 | @Sir_Ahzz | heh |
| 16:21 | @Sir_Ahzz | the stump get's it later. |
| 16:21 | Mark | sooo, nickserv... what exactly do I have to do? this IRC business is somewhat new fangled and unfamiliar ;-) |
| 16:21 | @Sir_Ahzz | previous homeowners left a 5' tall stump right next to the front door. complete with moldy and peeling bark. 8-P |
| 16:21 | @Sir_Ahzz | do /msg nickserv help |
| 16:21 | @Sir_Ahzz | it'll reply with instructions. :) |
| 16:22 | Mark | oooh! |
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| 16:24 | --- | <--- Mark [~MarkWilli@hebble.cl.cam.ac.uk] has left #xen (Kopete 0.9.2 : http://kopete.kde.org) |
| 16:24 | @riel | Patch #701 (linux-2.6.9-xen-compile.patch): |
| 16:24 | @riel | + patch -p1 -s |
| 16:24 | @riel | 2 out of 5 hunks FAILED -- saving rejects to file include/asm-xen/asm-i386/pgtable.h.rej |
| 16:24 | @riel | 1 out of 1 hunk FAILED -- saving rejects to file include/asm-xen/asm-i386/pgtable-2level.h.rej |
| 16:24 | @riel | 1 out of 1 hunk FAILED -- saving rejects to file arch/xen/i386/kernel/Makefile.rej |
| 16:24 | @riel | ok, close enough ;) |
| 16:25 | @Sir_Ahzz | fun. :) |
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| 16:25 | --- | <--- Mark [~MarkWilli@hebble.cl.cam.ac.uk] has left #xen (Kopete 0.9.2 : http://kopete.kde.org) |
| 16:25 | --- | Channel: mode/#xen [+o surriel] by riel |
| 16:25 | --- | ---> MarkW [~MarkWilli@hebble.cl.cam.ac.uk] has joined #xen |
| 16:25 | @Sir_Ahzz | mark, problems? |
| 16:26 | MarkW | sorted now |
| 16:27 | @Sir_Ahzz | ah |
| 16:27 | MarkW | Should be registered with nickserv as MarkW |
| 16:27 | @Sir_Ahzz | so is it mark or markw that you registered? |
| 16:27 | @Sir_Ahzz | ok |
| 16:27 | MarkW | there was another Mark :-( |
| 16:27 | MarkW | now why would someone be named after me...? |
| 16:27 | @Sir_Ahzz | you'r added. |
| 16:27 | @Sir_Ahzz | should get auto-oped upon joining if you have been verified by nickserv |
| 16:28 | --- | Channel: mode/#xen [+o MarkW] by Sir_Ahzz |
| 16:28 | | * MarkW feels his new superpowers appear |
| 16:28 | @riel | easily testabe with /cycle or /kick ;) |
| 16:29 | @MarkW | :-) |
| 16:29 | --- | !!!! riel was kicked from #xen by riel (test) |
| 16:29 | --- | ---> riel [~riel@riel.netop.oftc.net] has joined #xen |
| 16:29 | riel | mmmm nope |
| 16:29 | @Sir_Ahzz | you verified with nickserv? |
| 16:29 | riel | yes |
| 16:30 | @Sir_Ahzz | hunh. |
| 16:31 | @Sir_Ahzz | there. |
| 16:31 | @Sir_Ahzz | fixed in the list. |
| 16:31 | @Sir_Ahzz | it lost your entry for some reason. |
| 16:31 | @Sir_Ahzz | *shrug* |
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| 16:31 | --- | ---> riel [~riel@riel.netop.oftc.net] has joined #xen |
| 16:31 | --- | Channel: mode/#xen [+o riel] by ChanServ |
| 16:31 | @riel | ty |
| 16:31 | @Sir_Ahzz | ahh well, back to cutting this stump outa the ground. 8-P |
| 16:32 | --- | !!!! riel was kicked from #xen by riel (foo) |
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| 16:32 | --- | Channel: mode/#xen [+o riel] by ChanServ |
| 16:32 | @Sir_Ahzz | I *think* level 10 access grants chanserv admin rights, eg adding/removing users from the list. |
| 16:32 | @Sir_Ahzz | i'll figure it out later. :) |
| 16:32 | | * Sir_Ahzz is gone. work to do. |
| 16:32 | --- | Channel: mode/#xen [-o riel] by ChanServ |
| 16:32 | --- | Channel: mode/#xen [+o riel] by ChanServ |
| 16:32 | @riel | cool, that works too |
| 16:49 | knewt | Sir_Ahzz: "level #xen list" should tell you what levels are needed for different rights |
| 16:50 | knewt | ah, no. levels, not level, on this network |
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| 17:02 | @Sir_Ahzz | bah! damn chainsaw vaporlocked on me. |
| 17:02 | @Sir_Ahzz | the thing is 12 years old at least. |
| 17:02 | @Sir_Ahzz | lots of crud in the carb I bet. |
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| 17:31 | knewt | MarkW: i was looking through the current xend, and it opens /proc/xen/privcmd several times. there's no problem with actually only opening it once, right? it's just how the code has been structured? |
| 17:33 | @MarkW | right |
| 17:33 | hollis | I think aliguori said it wasn't really being opened several times; it just looks like it |
| 17:33 | @MarkW | the only reason you open it is you can do ioctl()s on it. as long as you have *a* file descriptor to it, it doesn't matter where you got it from |
| 17:34 | @MarkW | hollis: seems quite possible |
| 17:34 | knewt | and if a process running as root opens /proc/xen/privcmd and then gives up root privs then everything will still work? |
| 17:34 | hollis | something about "lazy opening"... but maybe that was vm-tools and not xend? I didn't pay attention |
| 17:34 | knewt | hollis: i think you're thinking about vm-tools |
| 17:34 | hollis | ok |
| 17:34 | @MarkW | hollis: that was libxen, not the current tools |
| 17:35 | @MarkW | knewt: you need to be able to mlock stuff in order to use the privcmd interface |
| 17:35 | @MarkW | no good passing stuff to Xen that's been paged out... |
| 17:35 | --- | User: *** riel is now known as unriel |
| 17:35 | knewt | hollis: xend creates multiple instances of the python xc object with xen.lowlevel.xc.new(), each one calling xc_interface_open |
| 17:36 | @MarkW | knewt: in that case it really is opening it multiple times, i agree |
| 17:36 | knewt | MarkW: ah, so need to keep hold of root privs then? |
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| 17:36 | MarkW | oops, my irc client died |
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| 17:43 | knewt | MarkW: ok, so i need mlock. is that it? if so then i can just drop all capabilities other than CAP_IPC_LOCK once i've opened /proc/xen/privcmd |
| 17:43 | MarkW | knewt: i think that should work, yes |
| 17:44 | knewt | since i don't need to execve at any point, so i won't fall foul of the issues with capabilities |
| 18:07 | --- | User: *** surriel is now known as riel |
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| 18:10 | aliguori | knewt: an alternative approach would be using mlockall(MCL_FUTURE) and then dropping privileges |
| 18:10 | aliguori | that should work |
| 18:11 | aliguori | knewt: i'm not sure you're all that much better off though dropping privileges if you can write to privcmd. You can find creative ways to map the full address space of dom0 and do whatever evil things you'd like to do |
| 18:12 | aliguori | having access to privcmd is far more dangerous than being root. |
| 18:14 | knewt | yeah, i guess |
| 18:20 | eigood | nothing is more dangerous than being root |
| 18:23 | MarkW | eigood: in dom0, i guess that's true |
| 18:24 | MarkW | which implies that privcmd access === dom0's root === everyone else's root, after a fashion |
| 18:24 | eigood | since root can open privcmd, being not root but having access to privcmd doesn't make you more dangerous that root |
| 18:25 | eigood | if domU can open privcmd and access dom0's mem, then xen is broken. |
| 18:25 | eigood | now, if the request goes to dom0, which can arbitrate it, then that's fine |
| 18:25 | MarkW | eigood: it can't unless you make the domU privileged |
| 18:25 | eigood | but, in all honest, domU should not be able to open control c hannels with other domains; data channels, yes, if you already have a control channel open |
| 18:26 | MarkW | not sure what you mean there... |
| 18:27 | eigood | dom0 sets up control channels between different domU, then those domU can communicate with each other |
| 18:27 | eigood | think advanced cluster applications |
| 18:27 | cw | eigood: if you root a domU and send spasticaed messages to another domain via Xen it shouldn't break things. if it does then it's a bug and should be reported and fixed. |
| 18:27 | eigood | I'm speaking hypothetical |
| 18:28 | MarkW | eigood: yeah ok. domUs can't get at each other's control channels directly, so it's ok. |
| 18:29 | MarkW | opening inter-domU data channels will need the grant tables stuff, which is still being baked right now |
| 18:39 | cw | probably there are ways if you try hard and long enough to break things from domU --- but as these get discovered they will be fixed over time |
| 18:43 | MarkW | cw: there are at least 1 or 2 vulnerabilities in Xend, if you count DoS attacks from a domU |
| 18:47 | cw | sure, and im sure given time people will fix these and/or post patches |
| 18:47 | cw | speaking of which is there a bug-db on xensource.com ... i didnt see one but i wasn't looking either |
| 18:48 | MarkW | yes. the new control tools will hopefully eliminate these problems |
| 18:48 | MarkW | i don't think the bug tracker is online yet, i'm not sure what's happening with that |
| 18:49 | | * cw hopes it's not bugzilla |
| 18:50 | eigood | the latest bugzilla has some nice features |
| 18:50 | eigood | time tracking, better permissions/separator |
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| 19:07 | eigood | internal/external user support |
| 19:12 | cw | it's just very complicated and overdesigned for some uses, whatever works though |
| 19:15 | eigood | we haven't used the new version yet tho |
| 19:17 | @riel | I'm not aware of any nice bug tracking software |
| 19:17 | aliguori | yeah, neither am i. it's harder to get right than you'd think |
| 19:19 | aliguori | it's hard to denoise a bug tracking system in open source projects too.. we get tons of duplicates in samba because users don't search for a bug before they report it |
| 19:20 | --- | <<-- hbaum [~hbaum@bi01p1.co.us.ibm.com] has quit (Quit: Client exiting) |
| 19:23 | @riel | lets just fix the bugs before users run into them ;) |
| 19:23 | @riel | or let the distributions and xensource support people keep track of bugs |
| 19:27 | aliguori | :-) that's fine by me |
| 19:29 | aliguori | riel: are you guys taking xen-related bugs yet in fedora? |
| 19:30 | aliguori | ah, quick search looks like you are :-) |
| 19:30 | eigood | debian has been for a long time |
| 19:32 | aliguori | debian's had good xen support.. i can't figure out what gentoo's doing about xen though. there was a bug with an ebuild but that seems to have disappeared |
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| 20:16 | @riel | hey rusty |
| 20:18 | --- | <<-- rusty [~rusty@bh02i525f01.au.ibm.com] has quit (Ping timeout: 480 seconds) |
| 20:20 | @riel | mmm, I'll try that again when he rejoins |
| 20:20 | @riel | ;) |
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| 20:25 | cw | riel: do you use a registered nick with oftc? and if so do you have working access lists? |
| 20:25 | @riel | yes |
| 20:25 | cw | hrm... buggered if i know what im doing wrong then, i have a fairly generous access list and it never recognises me |
| 20:26 | --- | Channel: mode/#xen [-o unriel] by ChanServ |
| 20:26 | --- | Channel: mode/#xen [-o riel] by riel |
| 20:29 | --- | <--- Beirdo [~gjhurlbu@beirdo.usercloak.oftc.net] has left #xen (Leaving) |
| 20:44 | LaidBack_01 | aliguori, gentoo doesn't have a xen maintainer currently - so the project fell off the map for gentoo. |
| 20:46 | | * riel upgrades rawhide's kernel to today's Xen code |
| 20:46 | riel | (I'll commit it after I've tested it) |
| 20:47 | cw | riel: you run aim7 nightly on smp guests? |
| 20:47 | riel | cw: no |
| 20:47 | riel | I need to automate my tests |
| 20:48 | riel | but it's more important to have the packages out there, so other people can run automated tests ;) |
| 20:50 | Method | riel: a few weeks ago the fedora kernel apparently had a newer version of xen than the xen cvs did, the xen cvs was identifying itself as version 2 but the fedora one was 3, what was the deal with that? |
| 20:51 | riel | I track xen-unstable |
| 20:51 | --- | ---> rusty [~rusty@bh02i525f01.au.ibm.com] has joined #xen |
| 20:51 | riel | hi rusty |
| 20:51 | Method | i'm pretty sure thats what cvs i had but maybe not |
| 20:51 | | * riel waits for the ping timeout ;) |
| 20:52 | riel | Method: I often package the kernel part fresh from the bitkeeper tree |
| 20:52 | MarkW | Method: there's three bitkeeper trees, -stable, -testing, -unstable |
| 20:52 | Method | s/cvs/bk/ |
| 20:52 | Method | yea, i had unstable |
| 20:52 | cw | riel: have you seen the performance regression/problems others are reporting on dumU with vbd? |
| 20:52 | Method | i was fairly confused |
| 20:52 | riel | cw: I haven't tested |
| 20:52 | riel | cw: but Jens Axboe's patch should help |
| 20:52 | MarkW | -stable and -testing are the 2.0 series, -unstable is where the 3.0 series is being developed |
| 20:52 | riel | (and is part of the code changes I want to put into rawhide tonight) |
| 20:53 | Method | $ bk parent |
| 20:53 | Method | Parent repository is bk://xen.bkbits.net/xeno-unstable.bk |
| 20:53 | Method | yea.. maybe it was wierd timing |
| 20:54 | riel | if you've seen a patch on xen-changelog, it's available on bkbits.net |
| 20:55 | riel | (that's where I pull from for the changelog mails) |
| 20:56 | MarkW | Method: something weird must have happened :-) |
| 20:57 | cw | actually, sometimes i notice the parent repo changes to something inconsistent |
| 20:58 | cw | ive had to rm and reclone, pull just barfs or finds conflicts... think that was for xen-2.0-testing.bk but not 100% sure |
| 20:58 | MarkW | cw: could be a bitkeeper bug i guess |
| 20:59 | MarkW | i have (very occasionally) wedged my repo into states that confuse BK |
| 21:14 | cw | MarkW: looks more like the parent was recreated / resynced from somewhere else |
| 21:14 | cw | MarkW: 'bk changes -L' would show i had things the parent didn't --- yet i never made those changes |
| 21:14 | MarkW | ooh, that's a bit weird |
| 21:14 | riel | indeed, Ian did a 'bk undo' once |
| 21:14 | riel | by accident |
| 21:14 | cw | MarkW: maybe the parent has undo's done at times? that would explain it |
| 21:14 | MarkW | the parent being at bkbits? |
| 21:14 | cw | yeah, that's would bo it |
| 21:14 | cw | do it |
| 21:15 | cw | bk cset -x, not undo :) |
| 21:15 | cw | MarkW: yeah, bk://xen.bkbits.net/xeno-unstable.bk or similar... i forget now |
| 21:15 | MarkW | ok |
| 21:15 | | * MarkW has one more bug to squash before sleep |
| 21:16 | riel | cw: exactly |
| 21:18 | MarkW | is there actually anyone else here on London time? |
| 21:18 | MarkW | (just curious) |
| 21:20 | riel | not this week ;) |
| 21:20 | MarkW | right :-) where are you based usually / on average / nominally (delete as appropriate)? |
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| 21:41 | niv | MarkW: whom are you asking? riel? (EST?). Some of us are in Oregon (PST) where it is now 6:41PM |
| 21:42 | MarkW | anyone and everyone :-) just curious.... on british summer time (where I am) it's 3.42am |
| 21:43 | niv | MarkW: they're working you much too hard up there, laddie ;) |
| 21:43 | MarkW | of course I actually have my own personal timezone, so it's not as bad as it sounds ;-) |
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| 21:44 | MarkW | niv: i have one more bug that i'm determined to squash tonight... it's really bugging me! |
| 21:44 | niv | always handy, yer own time and space :) |
| 21:44 | niv | me too |
| 21:44 | niv | what are you working on? |
| 21:44 | MarkW | I'm hacking on XenFS most of the time now |
| 21:45 | niv | ah |
| 21:45 | niv | how's that coming along? |
| 21:45 | MarkW | (for those who haven't heard of it XenFS is a bit like NFS but exploiting all all the servers / clients being able to share memory directly) |
| 21:46 | MarkW | it's coming along OK now I'm concentrating on it |
| 21:46 | aliguori | MarkW: is a copy available yet? :-) I'm very anxious to see it |
| 21:46 | MarkW | aliguori: it's not ready for other people to look at the code yet - might make them queasy |
| 21:46 | aliguori | heh, i hope it's not too much like NFS :-) |
| 21:46 | MarkW | aliguori: so do I :-D |
| 21:47 | MarkW | i'll make some code available as soon as it's reasonably sane. |
| 21:47 | MarkW | the really interesting stuff is the optimisations i can do later on, however... |
| 21:47 | aliguori | is it a point-to-point file system or can it be shared between 2 or more domains? |
| 21:48 | niv | the world is very short of a good network file system. Xen lends itself to a lot more exploitation and gain here - should be really interesting |
| 21:48 | MarkW | aliguori: the sharing is where things get rather interesting |
| 21:48 | aliguori | niv: yup, it's becomes particularly interesting when you try to match the semantics of multiple platforms |
| 21:48 | aliguori | MarkW: that's what I figured :-) |
| 21:48 | MarkW | things I may look at: |
| 21:49 | MarkW | providing CoW functionality in the server to minimise disk usage |
| 21:50 | MarkW | sharing common memory pages between domains to minimise IO / save memory |
| 21:50 | MarkW | write sharing (i'd like to do this by direct memory sharing but i don't know if that's sane yet) |
| 21:51 | MarkW | but first I have to make the basics sane :-D |
| 21:51 | aliguori | CoW at what level? on a per-block basis or per-inode? |
| 21:51 | MarkW | per inode |
| 21:51 | aliguori | we've been looking at unionfs.. even though it's file-level CoW it's quite useful in a virtualized environment |
| 21:52 | MarkW | we had an NFS server that did CoW at filesystem level but that didn't perform well... |
| 21:52 | MarkW | aliguori: yes that would do the job nicely - whose implementation are you using? |
| 21:52 | aliguori | the FiST one. |
| 21:53 | aliguori | http://www.fsl.cs.sunysb.edu/project-unionfs.html |
| 21:53 | MarkW | ah, ok |
| 21:53 | aliguori | it's quite neat in with xen because you can just share a common read-only device and give each domain a small rw device for CoW |
| 21:53 | niv | aliguori: thanks for the url |
| 21:54 | niv | what are you using it for? |
| 21:54 | aliguori | the only real performance problem i can think of is reading a directory (because unionfs has to merge two directories--if there's a ton of files in both directories it could be expensive) |
| 21:55 | aliguori | niv: we've been looking at it for our ols proposal |
| 21:55 | niv | are you going to present that at ols? |
| 21:55 | aliguori | niv: i've gotta give credit to rharper, i had given up on it but he showed me that i was just being a stupid user :-) |
| 21:56 | aliguori | niv: i don't know. we're looking at a lot of things right now |
| 21:56 | aliguori | the problem with unionfs is that it's not really practical. the code base won't likely make it into the kernel |
| 21:56 | aliguori | the FiST stuff is too clunky |
| 21:57 | niv | aliguori: what else is there on the horizon in this space, though, that you know of? |
| 21:57 | aliguori | niv: well, i've got a personal bias to content-addressable solutions like Venti |
| 21:57 | aliguori | :-) |
| 21:58 | aliguori | there was an old linux CoW filesystem called IFS that eventually was removed from the kernel for lack of maintainership |
| 21:58 | aliguori | sun has one (tranparent file system or something like that i believe) |
| 21:59 | niv | nothing that seems to have really gotten mindshare |
| 21:59 | aliguori | translucent, sorry |
| 21:59 | aliguori | not that i know of. i think TFS is perhaps the most well known |
| 22:00 | aliguori | unless you of course count the copy-on-write features in CIFS :-) |
| 22:01 | riel | MarkW: I'm in Nashua, NH, US - it's 22:02 here |
| 22:01 | riel | (and the kernel RPM compile seems to have finished - testing time in a bit) |
| 22:02 | aliguori | man, i guess i'm the only one in CST.. there normally are a bunch of texas folks here though :-) |
| 22:02 | niv | is SMP compile broken? there were rumors to that effect here which I wasn't paying close attention to |
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| 22:03 | niv | aliguori: ah, CST, where it's neither too late nor too early :) |
| 22:04 | riel | Subject: [Xen-changelog] Fix queue unplugging in blkback driver. |
| 22:04 | riel | oh great |
| 22:04 | riel | I thought that one was committed way earlier today |
| 22:04 | aliguori | time to rebuild kernel rpms :-) |
| 22:04 | riel | Subject: [Xen-changelog] Patch from Jens Axboe to synchronously flush block |
| 22:04 | riel | oh n/m, it was |
| 22:08 | riel | two patches in the same area |
| 22:10 | riel | if this stuff breaks, I'll try again tomorrow morning ;) |
| 22:10 | riel | with newer code |
| 22:13 | niv | riel: i think you have everything so far, this might work |
| 22:13 | riel | I only have the second one - not the first one |
| 22:15 | riel | ok, looks like I need a newer xen, too |
| 22:16 | riel | NET: Registered protocol family 17 |
| 22:16 | riel | inst3: 0000 [#1] |
| 22:16 | riel | SMP end_stop disable_local_APIC |
| 22:16 | riel | (XEN) |
| 22:16 | riel | Domain 0 shutdown: rebooting machine. |
| 22:16 | riel | this is annoying too |
| 22:17 | riel | ok, I'll look at this tomorrow |
| 22:17 | riel | enough for today |
| 22:18 | | * niv is going to get some dinner.. |
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| 22:18 | | * MarkW has conquered another xenfs bug |
| 22:19 | MarkW | time for bed :-) |
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| 22:37 | riel | ok cool, the kernel boots with a new xen |
| 22:45 | | * riel pushes both xen and the new kernel into the build system |
| 22:47 | schweeb | riel: which version of python are you using with the userspace stuff? |
| 22:47 | riel | oh crud ! |
| 22:47 | schweeb | we've had a couple problems with 2.4 on ubuntu |
| 22:47 | riel | Call Trace: |
| 22:47 | riel | [<c025638a>] blk_run_queue+0x1a/0x50 |
| 22:47 | riel | [<c0265744>] blkio_schedule+0x134/0x160 |
| 22:47 | riel | [<c011a730>] default_wake_function+0x0/0x20 |
| 22:47 | riel | [<c0265610>] blkio_schedule+0x0/0x160 |
| 22:47 | riel | [<c01080cd>] kernel_thread_helper+0x5/0x18 |
| 22:47 | riel | shit |
| 22:47 | schweeb | heh |
| 22:47 | riel | so I do need both patches |
| 22:54 | rusty | Hi Rik! |
| 22:56 | --- | ---> jeroney [~jeroney@rrcs-24-173-250-83.sw.biz.rr.com] has joined #xen |
| 22:59 | riel | rusty: time to put the latest (and greatest?) xen code in rawhide ;) |
| 22:59 | | * riel just pulled and fixed up linux-2.6.11-xen.patch |
| 23:00 | rusty | riel: cool. |
| 23:02 | riel | (for the second time today) |
| 23:02 | riel | the code I had yesterday was stable |
| 23:02 | riel | it survived an overnight aim7 run, on a xenU guest with 3 cpus |
| 23:22 | jeroney | riel: good to see xen back in rawhide :-) |
| 23:23 | riel | yeah |
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| --- | Log | closed Fri Apr 01 00:00:39 2005 |