| --- | Log | opened Wed Mar 14 00:00:51 2012 |
| 00:09 | -!- | arakasii [3ce20ec4@ircip3.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd |
| 00:11 | <arakasii> | good morning. anyone have a moment to test my server connection. ive setup port forwarding but apparently it still shows offline when my brother tries to connect |
| 00:12 | <arakasii> | wondering if its still something ive done or problem his end |
| 00:16 | -!- | arakasii [3ce20ec4@ircip3.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] |
| 01:06 | -!- | Pikka [~chatzilla@d58-111-74-170.rdl800.qld.optusnet.com.au] has joined #openttd |
| 01:46 | -!- | tokai|noir [~tokai@port-92-195-30-215.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd |
| 01:46 | -!- | mode/#openttd [+v tokai|noir] by ChanServ |
| 01:46 | -!- | tokai|mdlx [~tokai@port-92-195-24-105.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] |
| 01:56 | -!- | Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B72C21.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] |
| 01:56 | -!- | Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B7435C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd |
| 02:18 | -!- | andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd |
| 02:21 | <Pikka> | andy! |
| 02:21 | <Pikka> | http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=42562&p=1000815#p1000815 it works! :D |
| 02:22 | -!- | tokai|mdlx [~tokai@port-92-195-111-221.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd |
| 02:26 | -!- | tokai|noir [~tokai@port-92-195-30-215.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] |
| 02:27 | -!- | Prof_Frink [~proffrink@02dc0652.bb.sky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] |
| 02:34 | -!- | JVassie [~James@2.27.104.165] has joined #openttd |
| 02:35 | -!- | sla_ro|master [slaco@95.76.26.172] has joined #openttd |
| 02:38 | -!- | Pikka [~chatzilla@d58-111-74-170.rdl800.qld.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.1 [Firefox 10.0.2/20120215223356]] |
| 02:58 | -!- | Pikka [~chatzilla@d58-111-74-170.rdl800.qld.optusnet.com.au] has joined #openttd |
| 02:58 | -!- | jo2k [~Jonny@dslb-094-223-146-089.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd |
| 03:04 | -!- | jo2k [~Jonny@dslb-094-223-146-089.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: jo2k] |
| 03:11 | -!- | kkb110 [~kkb110@cpe-69-203-124-125.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] |
| 03:18 | -!- | andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] |
| 03:22 | -!- | Maarten_ [~dutchusa@99-73-209-18.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #openttd |
| 03:23 | -!- | JVassie [~James@2.27.104.165] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] |
| 03:27 | -!- | Maarten [~dutchusa@99-73-209-18.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] |
| 03:38 | -!- | TWerkhoven[l] [~twerkhove@cpc3-linl7-2-0-cust522.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: He who can look into the future, has a brighter future to look into] |
| 03:38 | -!- | andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd |
| 03:41 | -!- | Phoenix_the_II [~ralph@home.deboom.biz] has joined #openttd |
| 03:41 | -!- | Twofish [~Twofish@77-95-76-210.bb.cust.hknett.no] has joined #openttd |
| 03:41 | -!- | Twofish [~Twofish@77-95-76-210.bb.cust.hknett.no] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] |
| 03:49 | <andythenorth> | Pikka: shiny |
| 03:49 | <Pikka> | :] |
| 03:53 | -!- | Pixa [~pixa@85.210.76.192] has joined #openttd |
| 03:53 | -!- | George [~George@212.113.107.39] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] |
| 03:57 | <@planetmaker> | results look MUCH better, Pikka :-) |
| 03:57 | <@planetmaker> | as you're here, I can also ask here: how did you achieve the result? |
| 03:58 | <@planetmaker> | (did I ever mention that I like very much the transparent view of TAI for its great clarity?) |
| 03:58 | -!- | LordPixaII [~pixa@79-68-108-222.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] |
| 03:59 | -!- | TWerkhoven[l] [~twerkhove@cpc3-linl7-2-0-cust522.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd |
| 03:59 | <@planetmaker> | no newgrf gives a better overview to a tycoon and help where to build new connections |
| 03:59 | <Pikka> | planetmaker: it builds a house which it then immediately removes |
| 03:59 | <@planetmaker> | ok :-) |
| 03:59 | <Pikka> | I had my doubts that it would work, but it seems to |
| 04:00 | <SpComb> | Chris Sawyer needs to do a kickstarter pledge for TTD2.. |
| 04:00 | <SpComb> | oh, no, wait.. |
| 04:00 | <andythenorth> | :) |
| 04:00 | <@planetmaker> | how do you unbuild it? |
| 04:00 | <@planetmaker> | technically speaking? |
| 04:00 | <Pikka> | callback 21 |
| 04:01 | <Pikka> | it's not a /perfect/ solution, because there's a chance you could bump into one of the non-houses (which for TaI will look like rough ground sprites) while building, for the <256 ticks of the house's existence. but it's unlikely to happen often in practice. |
| 04:01 | -!- | George [~George@212.113.107.39] has joined #openttd |
| 04:02 | -!- | Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B7435C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] |
| 04:02 | -!- | Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B7435C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd |
| 04:03 | <@planetmaker> | yeah. You could use a special ground sprite for it though which features some <whatever>... maybe some advertisement or so |
| 04:04 | <@planetmaker> | thus the kind of transitional things which appear in outskirts sometimes |
| 04:04 | -!- | TheMask96 [martijn@polaris.ne2000.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] |
| 04:04 | <Pikka> | possibly, although I think drawing attention to them might just make things more confusing for players. |
| 04:05 | <@planetmaker> | maybe. 256 ticks is just short of 4 days... |
| 04:05 | <Pikka> | I'll see how things go once I get it into the set and people can play with it. |
| 04:05 | <@planetmaker> | ^^ |
| 04:05 | <Pikka> | yeah |
| 04:05 | <Pikka> | but that's the maximum period they'll live for, I think. It can be shorter. |
| 04:05 | <@planetmaker> | that's how I understand it, yes |
| 04:09 | -!- | TheMask96 [martijn@polaris.ne2000.nl] has joined #openttd |
| 04:11 | <@planetmaker> | Now all it needs is a prominent warning in the readme "Do not use this NewGRF with town growth scripts" so that we all can say "rtfm you dork!" :-P |
| 04:11 | <Pikka> | lol |
| 04:11 | <Pikka> | well, I don't know how much a town growth script would hurt |
| 04:12 | <Pikka> | plenty of people use it at the same time as other house newgrfs, which totally defeats the growth limit thing. :P |
| 04:12 | <@planetmaker> | it would not hurt. But it'll be two things trying the same thing with different limits and conditions |
| 04:12 | <@planetmaker> | thus people will complain that the script doesn't work as intended |
| 04:13 | <Pikka> | true |
| 04:13 | <@planetmaker> | reports you most likely won't get but the script writer |
| 04:13 | <Pikka> | although is anyone ever going to make such a script? :) |
| 04:13 | <@planetmaker> | they do exist already. More than one. On bananas |
| 04:13 | <Pikka> | hmm |
| 04:14 | <@planetmaker> | basically 75% of the game scripts are town growth scripts so far |
| 04:14 | <Pikka> | speaking of bananas, it would be good if I could update my grfs :) |
| 04:14 | <@planetmaker> | did you try again? |
| 04:14 | <Pikka> | yep, today |
| 04:14 | <@planetmaker> | with what error? |
| 04:15 | <Pikka> | same as last time, unknown error uploading or something along those lines. |
| 04:15 | -!- | PhoenixII [~ralph@home.deboom.biz] has joined #openttd |
| 04:15 | -!- | Phoenix_the_II [~ralph@home.deboom.biz] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] |
| 04:16 | <@planetmaker> | can you send me one of the grfs you tried? I don't have time to look now. I have a suspicion that it's something with the bananans DB and I might look later or ask Rb |
| 04:16 | <@planetmaker> | but a more exact error would be helpful ;-) |
| 04:17 | <Pikka> | http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=45637&p=1000802#p1000802 |
| 04:18 | <@planetmaker> | ok, thx. So that zip could go there in its entirety as posted there, yes? |
| 04:18 | <Pikka> | yep |
| 04:18 | <Pikka> | that is the zip I was trying to upload |
| 04:18 | <Pikka> | btw, "required version" on bananas still only goes up to 1.1.3 :) |
| 04:19 | <@planetmaker> | true |
| 04:19 | <@planetmaker> | stupid ;-) |
| 04:22 | -!- | Scuddles [~notme@cm22.epsilon82.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #openttd |
| 04:22 | <Pikka> | no scrubblecars |
| 04:22 | <Scuddles> | pikka is a butt |
| 04:23 | <Pikka> | go and play your bad game |
| 04:42 | -!- | andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] |
| 05:01 | -!- | Rhamphoryncus [~rhamph@d161-184-227-133.abhsia.telus.net] has joined #openttd |
| 05:09 | -!- | welshdragon [~mark-oftc@welshdragon.zernebok.net] has joined #openttd |
| 05:14 | -!- | pjpe [ade6a119@ircip1.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] |
| 05:15 | -!- | andythenorth [~Andy@78-86-194-127.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd |
| 05:36 | -!- | Pikka [~chatzilla@d58-111-74-170.rdl800.qld.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] |
| 05:36 | -!- | Pikka [~chatzilla@d58-111-74-170.rdl800.qld.optusnet.com.au] has joined #openttd |
| 05:36 | -!- | DDR [~chatzilla@d99-199-11-52.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.1 [Firefox 10.0.2/20120216100510]] |
| 05:41 | <dihedral> | hello |
| 05:49 | -!- | tokai|noir [~tokai@port-92-195-39-179.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd |
| 05:49 | -!- | mode/#openttd [+v tokai|noir] by ChanServ |
| 05:50 | -!- | Mazur [~mazur@5ED04965.cm-7-1b.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] |
| 05:53 | <Pikka> | where's roadtypes, then? |
| 05:54 | -!- | tokai|mdlx [~tokai@port-92-195-111-221.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] |
| 05:56 | -!- | Pikka [~chatzilla@d58-111-74-170.rdl800.qld.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.1 [Firefox 10.0.2/20120215223356]] |
| 06:02 | -!- | tokai|mdlx [~tokai@port-92-195-52-214.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd |
| 06:05 | -!- | Mazur [~mazur@5ED04965.cm-7-1b.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #openttd |
| 06:08 | -!- | tokai|noir [~tokai@port-92-195-39-179.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] |
| 06:09 | -!- | glevans2 [~glevans2@75-141-134-16.dhcp.mdfd.or.charter.com] has joined #openttd |
| 06:33 | -!- | smoovi [~smoovi@e178241062.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #openttd |
| 06:33 | -!- | tokai|noir [~tokai@port-92-195-228-94.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd |
| 06:33 | -!- | mode/#openttd [+v tokai|noir] by ChanServ |
| 06:38 | -!- | tokai|mdlx [~tokai@port-92-195-52-214.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] |
| 06:42 | -!- | cypher [~Miranda@wced-245-219-32-147.feld.cvut.cz] has joined #openttd |
| 07:02 | -!- | sla_ro|master [slaco@95.76.26.172] has quit [Quit: DANGER sla.ro is OFFLINE DANGER] |
| 07:08 | -!- | Mazur [~mazur@5ED04965.cm-7-1b.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] |
| 07:17 | -!- | Mazur [~mazur@5ED04965.cm-7-1b.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #openttd |
| 07:18 | -!- | KouDy1 [~KouDy@115.133.7.78] has joined #openttd |
| 07:23 | -!- | KouDy [~KouDy@115.133.7.78] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] |
| 07:26 | -!- | cypher [~Miranda@wced-245-219-32-147.feld.cvut.cz] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org] |
| 07:39 | -!- | tokai|mdlx [~tokai@port-92-195-104-77.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd |
| 07:44 | -!- | tokai|noir [~tokai@port-92-195-228-94.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] |
| 07:45 | -!- | welshdragon [~mark-oftc@welshdragon.zernebok.net] has quit [Killed (NickServ (Too many failed password attempts.))] |
| 07:46 | -!- | welshdragon [~mark-oftc@welshdragon.zernebok.net] has joined #openttd |
| 08:04 | -!- | glevans2 [~glevans2@75-141-134-16.dhcp.mdfd.or.charter.com] has left #openttd [] |
| 08:40 | -!- | HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@i59F6CD13.versanet.de] has joined #openttd |
| 08:52 | -!- | evdvelde [~evdvelde@143.129.80.37] has joined #openttd |
| 08:55 | -!- | Pikka [~chatzilla@d58-111-74-170.rdl800.qld.optusnet.com.au] has joined #openttd |
| 08:59 | <evdvelde> | hi all, question of the day :) |
| 08:59 | <evdvelde> | i seem unable to fund buildings or build statues, any clues? |
| 09:00 | <Mark> | not enough cash? |
| 09:00 | <Pikka> | I believe you have to have a high enough rating in the town and/or the town needs to be a certain size before you get those options. |
| 09:01 | <evdvelde> | ah ok thanks Pikka |
| 09:02 | <evdvelde> | Mark: i have enough and see other options i cannot pay atm, but thanks too :) |
| 09:05 | <andythenorth> | Pikka: did you find roadtypes anywhere? |
| 09:05 | <Pikka> | nope :[ |
| 09:05 | <andythenorth> | non moi aussi |
| 09:06 | <andythenorth> | allemagne dix points |
| 09:06 | <Pikka> | it's a little bit sad working on 19th century towns and industries, but not being able to do anything about those bitumen roads |
| 09:07 | <Pikka> | atsa lotta points' |
| 09:08 | <Eddi|zuHause> | by my experience, that almost never happens |
| 09:08 | <Eddi|zuHause> | it's either 12 or no points |
| 09:09 | <andythenorth> | http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=del+boy+french&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8 |
| 09:10 | <andythenorth> | Pikka: how's your c++ ? :P |
| 09:10 | <andythenorth> | I have a roadtypes repo :| |
| 09:10 | <Pikka> | poor to average :P |
| 09:10 | <andythenorth> | better than mine |
| 09:11 | <andythenorth> | it's not just the C++, it's knowing the game structure 'and now you need to do xyz' |
| 09:11 | <Eddi|zuHause> | <andythenorth> I have a roadtypes repo :| <-- how many steps is that above "i have a thread in the suggestions forum"? :p |
| 09:11 | <andythenorth> | Eddi|zuHause: 1.15 |
| 09:11 | <andythenorth> | I think I have a commit to flip map bits :P |
| 09:12 | <andythenorth> | I could learn more, but then I become a slow (bad) game dev, instead of a reasonably quick (moderately adequate) newgrf dev |
| 09:13 | <Pikka> | hmm |
| 09:13 | <andythenorth> | http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/roadtypes/repository |
| 09:13 | <Pikka> | are "roadtypes" and "tramtypes" two separate things? |
| 09:13 | <andythenorth> | technically? or for the player? |
| 09:13 | <Pikka> | technically |
| 09:14 | <Eddi|zuHause> | Pikka: that was kinda undecided |
| 09:14 | <andythenorth> | there are (iirc) three built-in roadtypes currently: road, tram, hway |
| 09:14 | <andythenorth> | in a roadtypes spec, 'tram' is a subset of roadtypes |
| 09:14 | <andythenorth> | it's a flag, and is drawn on top of any road surface |
| 09:15 | <Pikka> | ok |
| 09:15 | <Eddi|zuHause> | Pikka: there were two philosophies, one philosophy where a tile should have one road-like type, and one tram-like type, and one philosophy where they should be exchangable |
| 09:15 | <andythenorth> | you only get two kinds of route per tile iirc |
| 09:15 | <Pikka> | yep, tricky :) |
| 09:16 | <Eddi|zuHause> | Pikka: and one (more or less strong) opinion that there should be 3 independent road types per tile (which raises a "not enough map bits" issue) |
| 09:16 | <andythenorth> | fwiw, there was a lot of discussion, not entirely a lot of agreement, and the result I had was this: http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/1221/ |
| 09:17 | <andythenorth> | if you want 'road with tramway' that's a single type |
| 09:18 | <Pikka> | hmm |
| 09:18 | <Pikka> | that's probably actually a better way to do it |
| 09:19 | <Eddi|zuHause> | andythenorth: but then you need crossings between "road with tram" and "road without tram" |
| 09:19 | <andythenorth> | I didn't say it was good |
| 09:19 | <Eddi|zuHause> | so essentially you get the same problems, but you wasted one roadtype |
| 09:19 | * | andythenorth shrug :) |
| 09:19 | <andythenorth> | the alternatives weren't better |
| 09:19 | <andythenorth> | extend the map array? |
| 09:21 | <Eddi|zuHause> | entirely unrelated: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=249TzXFgBss |
| 09:22 | <andythenorth> | Pikka: v0.2.0 \o/ |
| 09:22 | <andythenorth> | cement tank? |
| 09:22 | <andythenorth> | :) |
| 09:22 | <Pikka> | haven't put in anything that wasn't already coded yet. but sure, I can get that in... |
| 09:23 | <andythenorth> | hmm |
| 09:23 | <andythenorth> | what else did I do? |
| 09:23 | * | andythenorth has no brain |
| 09:23 | <andythenorth> | http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/ukrs2-addons/repository/show/exports |
| 09:23 | <Pikka> | if you dropped the second roadtype, are there enough bits for each quadrant of the tile to have a different roadtype? :) |
| 09:30 | <Pikka> | if the number of possible roadtypes is reduced to 15, then we could get away with replacing the "4 bits for type" and "4 road bits" with 4*4 bits for the road type in each quadrant of the tile (or 0/F for none). Or keep the "road bits" too and have 16 road types. |
| 09:32 | <Pikka> | anyway, it's late and I should go to bed :) |
| 09:36 | <Rhamphoryncus> | Track types are stored separately? |
| 09:36 | <Eddi|zuHause> | Rhamphoryncus: there is only one tracktype per tile |
| 09:37 | <Eddi|zuHause> | Pikka, andythenorth: the whole discussion might be meaningless, if michi_cc's map-layering stuff makes it to trunk |
| 09:37 | <Rhamphoryncus> | Yeah, but's a related bit of data. Might be some good options. |
| 09:37 | -!- | Pikka [~chatzilla@d58-111-74-170.rdl800.qld.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.1 [Firefox 10.0.2/20120215223356]] |
| 09:38 | <Rhamphoryncus> | What's that? Google isn't telling me |
| 09:38 | <Eddi|zuHause> | then each MP_ROAD "tile" would only have one roadtype, but you could layer multiple MP_ROAD "tiles" over each other |
| 09:39 | <Rhamphoryncus> | Hum. Does that create a new layer on the map for each type loaded? Or is it for bridges/tunnels? |
| 09:40 | -!- | cypher [~Miranda@ip-78-45-92-63.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd |
| 09:40 | <Eddi|zuHause> | it allows things like this http://www.icosahedron.de/openttd/patches/cool_stuff2.png |
| 09:40 | <Rhamphoryncus> | oooh |
| 09:41 | <Eddi|zuHause> | potentially also custom bridgeheads and signals on bridges, but it's way deeper fundamentals |
| 09:41 | * | Rhamphoryncus nods |
| 09:43 | <Rhamphoryncus> | If that covers both road and rail I wonder if it could be used for different traffic patterns too, ie curved tracks |
| 09:44 | <Eddi|zuHause> | nothing to do with that |
| 09:45 | -!- | glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:8d11:84a6:49e8:4318] has joined #openttd |
| 09:45 | -!- | mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ |
| 09:45 | <Rhamphoryncus> | aww |
| 09:49 | <+michi_cc> | Rhamphoryncus: Curved tracks isn't complicated, you only have to deal with a mild combinatorial explosion :) |
| 09:50 | <Rhamphoryncus> | Yeah, that's why I'm asking :) |
| 09:50 | <Rhamphoryncus> | It's nothing magical. Just more of the same we already do |
| 09:51 | <Eddi|zuHause> | and you have to draw them :p |
| 09:51 | <Rhamphoryncus> | that too |
| 09:51 | <Eddi|zuHause> | they don't even need map bits |
| 09:51 | <Rhamphoryncus> | but on that note I'm volunteering to make a newgrf. It'll be hideous, but I'll make it. :) |
| 09:51 | <Eddi|zuHause> | only some variables exposed to newgrf |
| 09:51 | <Rhamphoryncus> | huh |
| 09:53 | <Rhamphoryncus> | Hmm. If I actually put together a set of graphics would that help much in getting the code changed? |
| 09:54 | <+michi_cc> | Yes. |
| 09:54 | <@planetmaker> | <andythenorth> there are (iirc) three built-in roadtypes currently: road, tram, hway <-- there's no highway anymore |
| 09:55 | <Rhamphoryncus> | No hard proposal on curve radiuses that I should conform to/argue with? |
| 09:55 | <+michi_cc> | The biggest problem for curved tracks is to decide on a good schema how to provide the track graphics. E.g. should all tracks on a tile be drawn as one sprite or composited like they are now? |
| 09:56 | <@planetmaker> | some visible work generally helps getting a good discussion started :-) |
| 09:56 | <+michi_cc> | Or is it easier for NewGRFs if the adjacent track bits are realtive to what is drawn or absolute. |
| 09:56 | * | Rhamphoryncus nods |
| 09:56 | <Rhamphoryncus> | What about diagonal roads? :) |
| 09:56 | * | planetmaker prefers the combinatorical approach. For no good reasons |
| 09:57 | <Eddi|zuHause> | Rhamphoryncus: need movement pattern, entirely different issue. |
| 09:57 | <Rhamphoryncus> | Or curved for that matter |
| 09:57 | <@planetmaker> | Rhamphoryncus, I have curves in my roads ;-) |
| 09:57 | <Eddi|zuHause> | www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/rail_bits.txt <-- design documents about the rail images needed |
| 09:58 | <+michi_cc> | planetmaker: Personally I don't think that would look good because for a switch the sleepers of the top-drawn track might hide a lot of the bottom track. |
| 09:58 | <@planetmaker> | that's the problem with that approach. Or can be |
| 09:58 | <Eddi|zuHause> | basically, you need 6 sprites per rail bit, "straight", "left curve" and "right curve", each in an "a" (from corner of tile to center) and "b" (from center to other corner of tile) variant |
| 09:59 | <Eddi|zuHause> | michi_cc: maybe sleepers and rail need to be split in two layers |
| 09:59 | <+michi_cc> | If you do whole tile at once you can avoide the overlap by doing fancy compositing on built time (where you can have more layers than just track and balast). |
| 09:59 | <Rhamphoryncus> | I want multiple radiuses, so you can have both wide sweeping and tight |
| 10:00 | <Eddi|zuHause> | Rhamphoryncus: not feasible on a per-tile basis |
| 10:00 | <+michi_cc> | Rhamphoryncus: You get track bits of adjacent tiles, nothing more. |
| 10:00 | <Rhamphoryncus> | Then we shall see what I can come up with *g* |
| 10:01 | <Eddi|zuHause> | Rhamphoryncus: important design constraint: in the center of the tile, all rail bits must be at the exact same position, to allow arbitrary combinations of "a" and "b" sections |
| 10:02 | <Rhamphoryncus> | Yeah, alignment will be my first task |
| 10:02 | -!- | TGYoshi [~TGYoshi@86.81.146.146] has joined #openttd |
| 10:02 | <Rhamphoryncus> | I may not go with fully arbitrary. We'll see. |
| 10:03 | <Eddi|zuHause> | Rhamphoryncus: the combination would be done automatically. you only have to provide the sprites for the 6 half-bits |
| 10:03 | <Eddi|zuHause> | for each of the 6 track directions |
| 10:03 | <Eddi|zuHause> | so 36 sprites |
| 10:05 | -!- | tokai|noir [~tokai@port-92-195-25-211.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd |
| 10:05 | -!- | mode/#openttd [+v tokai|noir] by ChanServ |
| 10:06 | <Rhamphoryncus> | That sounds too easy and boring. I'm going for insane, pie-in-the-sky :) |
| 10:06 | <Rhamphoryncus> | I never said they'd be GOOD sprites, so I need to do something meaningful, heh |
| 10:06 | <Eddi|zuHause> | "meaningful" is "fits in our concept" |
| 10:06 | <Eddi|zuHause> | everything else is basically useless |
| 10:07 | <+michi_cc> | Eddi|zuHause: Automatically for you means by OTTD or by some build process? I wouldn't like to do it in OTTD because it would directly limit what's possible. |
| 10:07 | <Rhamphoryncus> | I did ask if there was a hard proposal |
| 10:07 | <Eddi|zuHause> | michi_cc: i meant the build process |
| 10:08 | <Eddi|zuHause> | Rhamphoryncus: and i did tell you my proposal |
| 10:08 | <Rhamphoryncus> | If any suggestions I make will be ignored unless they fit exactly what you want then there's no point in me working on it |
| 10:08 | <Eddi|zuHause> | Rhamphoryncus: that's not what i said |
| 10:09 | <Rhamphoryncus> | It sounds like your "curved" is just a graphical tweak over what we have now |
| 10:09 | <Eddi|zuHause> | yes |
| 10:09 | <Rhamphoryncus> | That's not what I'm interested in |
| 10:10 | <Eddi|zuHause> | (imho) everything "bigger" will likely not be included, as it is a too large "step" |
| 10:10 | <+michi_cc> | Rhamphoryncus: The proposal by Eddi is based on what is possible to implement. "Real" arbitrary curved tracks means not only rewriting how rail is stored on the map but also rewriting all of the vehicle movement code. |
| 10:10 | -!- | Elukka [Elukka@78-27-90-14.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #openttd |
| 10:10 | <Eddi|zuHause> | there is, however, another thing i have been proposing: "traffic objects" |
| 10:10 | <@planetmaker> | anything bigger has very quickly the issue of backward compatibility for train sets |
| 10:11 | <@planetmaker> | as it will look awkward without further viewing angles for vehicles |
| 10:11 | <Eddi|zuHause> | which means it's like a NewObject (i.e. multi-tile), but has a state-machine (airport-like) |
| 10:11 | -!- | tokai|mdlx [~tokai@port-92-195-104-77.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] |
| 10:11 | <Eddi|zuHause> | thus you may lead a vehicle on arbitrary paths through this object |
| 10:12 | <Eddi|zuHause> | but that's rather a "far future" thing |
| 10:12 | <Eddi|zuHause> | as nobody has figured out yet how to generalize airport-like state machines for (articulated) vehicles |
| 10:12 | <Rhamphoryncus> | Well, wait and see if I can come up with a decent alignment, alright? That's not too insane to store |
| 10:14 | -!- | Nat_aS [~Shep@00179a279bbd.click-network.com] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] |
| 10:16 | <Rhamphoryncus> | I'll code it |
| 10:17 | <Rhamphoryncus> | And yes, not having enough rotation sprites for vehicles will be ugly, but IMO it's already ugly. Nothing will be lost. |
| 10:17 | <Eddi|zuHause> | *hüstel* |
| 10:18 | <Rhamphoryncus> | If you actually look at how trains go around corners they do this odd jumpy thing |
| 10:20 | <Eddi|zuHause> | i meant: https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/1990/Hawthorn___Co.__6._Okt_1922.png |
| 10:21 | -!- | kkb110 [~kkb110@cpe-69-203-124-125.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #openttd |
| 10:21 | <Rhamphoryncus> | ooh |
| 10:22 | <Rhamphoryncus> | So some work has already been done. Nice. |
| 10:24 | -!- | Biolunar [~mahdi@blfd-4db0f467.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd |
| 10:26 | <V453000> | I think the way how cets does it looks great, but it is just so much more to draw than original :z |
| 10:51 | -!- | tokai|mdlx [~tokai@port-92-195-100-252.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd |
| 10:57 | -!- | tokai|noir [~tokai@port-92-195-25-211.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] |
| 11:00 | -!- | tokai|noir [~tokai@port-92-195-180-26.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd |
| 11:00 | -!- | mode/#openttd [+v tokai|noir] by ChanServ |
| 11:01 | -!- | andythenorth [~Andy@78-86-194-127.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] |
| 11:06 | -!- | tokai|mdlx [~tokai@port-92-195-100-252.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] |
| 11:11 | -!- | planetmaker [~planetmak@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has quit [Quit: ...und tschüß!] |
| 11:12 | -!- | Ammler [~ammler@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] |
| 11:13 | -!- | SmatZ [~smatz@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] |
| 11:14 | -!- | Ammler [~ammler@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd |
| 11:14 | -!- | Nat_aS [~Shep@00179a279bbd.click-network.com] has joined #openttd |
| 11:15 | -!- | planetmaker [~planetmak@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd |
| 11:15 | -!- | mode/#openttd [+o planetmaker] by ChanServ |
| 11:17 | -!- | _maddy [~plaiho@182.21.240.77.static.louhi.net] has joined #openttd |
| 11:17 | -!- | SmatZ [~smatz@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd |
| 11:20 | <NGC3982> | how ..does that work without signals? |
| 11:20 | * | NGC3982 i still new to the more advanced pbs. |
| 11:23 | -!- | cl8 [~cl8@host-92-3-253-43.as43234.net] has joined #openttd |
| 11:24 | -!- | tokai|mdlx [~tokai@port-92-195-130-50.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd |
| 11:29 | -!- | tokai|noir [~tokai@port-92-195-180-26.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] |
| 11:33 | -!- | andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd |
| 11:39 | -!- | _maddy [~plaiho@182.21.240.77.static.louhi.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] |
| 12:16 | -!- | cypher [~Miranda@ip-78-45-92-63.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] |
| 12:17 | -!- | cypher [~Miranda@ip-86-49-67-4.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd |
| 12:25 | -!- | Prof_Frink [~proffrink@02dc0652.bb.sky.com] has joined #openttd |
| 12:31 | -!- | PhoenixII [~ralph@home.deboom.biz] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] |
| 12:32 | -!- | smoovi [~smoovi@e178241062.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] |
| 12:41 | -!- | smoovi [~smoovi@e178193134.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #openttd |
| 12:54 | -!- | Doorslammer [7da861ac@ircip4.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd |
| 12:54 | -!- | Doorslammer [7da861ac@ircip4.mibbit.com] has quit [] |
| 12:54 | -!- | Doorslammer [7da861ac@ircip4.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd |
| 12:56 | * | andythenorth ponders |
| 12:57 | <andythenorth> | place a bet: disappearance of BROS forum....fuckup or flouncing drama? |
| 12:57 | <andythenorth> | welshdragon? |
| 12:57 | <andythenorth> | :) |
| 12:57 | <@planetmaker> | lol |
| 12:58 | <Doorslammer> | Whatever it is, it's a bloody facepalm yet again |
| 12:58 | <@planetmaker> | and then they say that history doesn't repeat itself :-) |
| 12:58 | <Eddi|zuHause> | who said that? :p |
| 12:59 | <@planetmaker> | I'm also sure one could make a good monty python sketch out of it meanwhile |
| 12:59 | <andythenorth> | doorslammer...never work with brits. disorganised, crappy infrastructure, prone to infighting :P |
| 13:00 | <Doorslammer> | Tell me about it |
| 13:03 | <Eddi|zuHause> | so what now, they spend 90% of the time with discussing their forum, 10% of the time drawing, and 0% coding |
| 13:06 | <andythenorth> | no, they spend 50% of their time responding to me baiting them :P |
| 13:06 | <andythenorth> | I blame the tories personally |
| 13:06 | <@planetmaker> | red herring is a nice thing to do ;-) |
| 13:06 | <Doorslammer> | Although the baiting isn't exactly... helpful, this has been an enormous waste of time for me |
| 13:06 | <@planetmaker> | or not. Depends on view |
| 13:07 | <@planetmaker> | (sorry, was no reply to DS) |
| 13:09 | <andythenorth> | Doorslammer: is your work now lost in some broken forum? |
| 13:09 | <andythenorth> | :| |
| 13:11 | <andythenorth> | if so that's very disheartening |
| 13:11 | <Doorslammer> | I have it still, but it's more of the fact that I still don't know if it's a) up to date and b) any good (still plenty of colour errors in it) |
| 13:12 | <andythenorth> | the devzone no help? http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/bros |
| 13:13 | <Doorslammer> | I never really followed it |
| 13:14 | <@planetmaker> | tt-forums and devzone are a bit more reliable than... seemingly the bros forum |
| 13:14 | <Doorslammer> | What did Oberhumer or WWW use? |
| 13:15 | <@planetmaker> | oberhumer uses devzone |
| 13:15 | <@planetmaker> | www uses gibhub |
| 13:18 | <Doorslammer> | Not that I even knew who we used half the time anyway |
| 13:21 | <@planetmaker> | "who we used" sounds.... like the real issue :-P |
| 13:23 | <Doorslammer> | Well, I spend long periods of time on other projects and things, so something had to be neglected |
| 13:25 | <andythenorth> | it was community managed, you never stood a chance ;) |
| 13:26 | <andythenorth> | it's a synonym for no leadership, no direction |
| 13:27 | -!- | |Jeroen| [~jeroen@d5152B25B.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd |
| 13:28 | <andythenorth> | there's also this http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/brosnyosis |
| 13:29 | <Doorslammer> | Not authorised to access |
| 13:30 | <andythenorth> | really :o |
| 13:30 | <andythenorth> | oh yes |
| 13:30 | <andythenorth> | how odd |
| 13:31 | <andythenorth> | it's not public |
| 13:31 | <@planetmaker> | err, hm |
| 13:31 | <andythenorth> | planetmaker: does devzone have a policy on private repos? |
| 13:32 | <andythenorth> | repos / projects |
| 13:32 | <andythenorth> | I'd vote for 'not allowed' |
| 13:32 | <@planetmaker> | yes: none |
| 13:32 | <andythenorth> | Doorslammer: try again |
| 13:32 | -!- | Progman [~progman@p57A1A049.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd |
| 13:32 | <@planetmaker> | ^^ |
| 13:32 | <andythenorth> | there's nothing there anyway, no repo |
| 13:32 | <andythenorth> | only one issue |
| 13:32 | <andythenorth> | it's probably dead |
| 13:33 | <@planetmaker> | I think that might be the reason... not remove. But 'hide'. As it never got any real content |
| 13:33 | <Doorslammer> | Didn't even know about that |
| 13:35 | -!- | HerzogDeXtEr1 [~Flex@i59F6DFFD.versanet.de] has joined #openttd |
| 13:37 | -!- | sla_ro|master [slaco@95.76.26.172] has joined #openttd |
| 13:41 | <Doorslammer> | The thing is, the first time this happened was because there was no GPL, no public access and just as much progress |
| 13:42 | -!- | oskari89 [~oskari89@213-186-253-165.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #openttd |
| 13:42 | -!- | HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@i59F6CD13.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] |
| 13:42 | <Doorslammer> | The difference now is the sprites are covered by GPL and that the project was more accessible |
| 13:43 | <Doorslammer> | So... someone is in rather serious trouble for killing it |
| 13:47 | <andythenorth> | assuming it's not just a billing failure |
| 13:47 | <Doorslammer> | I was under the assumption it was a university site |
| 13:47 | <oskari89> | Can someone code stations, non-track tiles? |
| 13:47 | <@planetmaker> | they can have issues at university computers, too, Doorslammer |
| 13:48 | <@planetmaker> | and... I could basically plug-in my own box here and do there whatever (as long as legal) |
| 13:48 | <oskari89> | Finnish Stations Set needs one.. |
| 13:48 | <@planetmaker> | oskari89, 'yes'. someone surely can |
| 13:49 | <@planetmaker> | do you code it and have a specific question about it? |
| 13:49 | <oskari89> | No, i'm not into coding but i have tracking table with sprites and information :P |
| 13:49 | <oskari89> | http://users.tt-forums.net/finnish/friss.html |
| 13:50 | -!- | Devedse [~Devedse@d100059.upc-d.chello.nl] has joined #openttd |
| 13:50 | <@planetmaker> | oskari89, post about it in the tt-forums |
| 13:50 | <@planetmaker> | in the newgrf development section or so |
| 13:50 | <oskari89> | Posted already.. |
| 13:50 | <oskari89> | Here: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=43560&start=20 |
| 13:52 | <oskari89> | But so far, no-one hasn't replied about coding.. |
| 13:53 | <oskari89> | Signals and rails have been coded, but no stations :P |
| 13:55 | <@planetmaker> | those who code stations need to venture into nfo land. And there an island which is special from other features. Thus not many people roam there |
| 13:56 | <oskari89> | I see.. |
| 13:58 | <oskari89> | Hmm, can looping sound be implemented on stations? |
| 13:58 | <@planetmaker> | looping as in repetitive? |
| 13:58 | <oskari89> | Yes. |
| 13:59 | <oskari89> | Non-stopping :P |
| 13:59 | <@planetmaker> | not directly. Sounds are called via callback on certain occasions |
| 13:59 | <oskari89> | Ok. |
| 14:00 | <oskari89> | It would be nice to have a stations taster, but so far very quiet on that... |
| 14:06 | <@planetmaker> | oskari89, the fastest way probably is: do it yourself |
| 14:06 | <@planetmaker> | with the ISR's code, there's plenty of example code present (provided you also release your set under the GPL) |
| 14:07 | -!- | evdvelde [~evdvelde@143.129.80.37] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] |
| 14:07 | -!- | |Jeroen| [~jeroen@d5152B25B.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: oO] |
| 14:13 | <oskari89> | Hmm.. |
| 14:14 | -!- | frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-4d009137.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd |
| 14:37 | -!- | FLHerne [~francis_h@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #openttd |
| 14:39 | -!- | Doorslammer [7da861ac@ircip4.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] |
| 14:40 | -!- | Chris_Booth[ph] [~chrisboot@213.205.233.214] has joined #openttd |
| 14:40 | <oskari89> | I've never coded anything, not even smallest things. |
| 14:41 | -!- | FLHerne [~francis_h@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has left #openttd [] |
| 14:41 | <oskari89> | Just done some modifications at my own set's name, nothing more. |
| 14:42 | <oskari89> | NFO isn't just my thing. |
| 14:43 | -!- | TheMask96 [martijn@polaris.ne2000.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] |
| 14:44 | <oskari89> | And the statement "Stations is the hardest thing to code as far as I know!" isn't very motivating. |
| 14:45 | -!- | valhallasw [~valhallas@193.52.24.37] has joined #openttd |
| 14:45 | <CIA-1> | OpenTTD: translators * r24028 /trunk/src/lang/ (hungarian.txt latvian.txt): |
| 14:45 | <CIA-1> | OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0: |
| 14:45 | <CIA-1> | OpenTTD: hungarian - 2 changes by Brumi |
| 14:45 | <CIA-1> | OpenTTD: latvian - 11 changes by Parastais |
| 14:47 | <frosch123> | yup, not motivating, but maybe challenging :p |
| 14:47 | -!- | TheMask96 [martijn@polaris.ne2000.nl] has joined #openttd |
| 14:47 | <frosch123> | V453000: did you saw that 73129 requested a user name change to 47407 ? |
| 14:48 | <frosch123> | maybe also an idea for you :p |
| 14:50 | -!- | Chris_Booth[ph] [~chrisboot@213.205.233.214] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi] |
| 14:51 | <andythenorth> | my two year old requests a patch: when drag-dynamiting land, explode animation shows on every tile, not just drag-box corners |
| 14:53 | <TWerkhoven[l]> | checkerboard (-ish) could work too |
| 14:54 | -!- | Chris_Booth[ph] [~chrisboot@host81-154-194-79.range81-154.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd |
| 14:55 | -!- | Devedse_ [~Devedse@d100059.upc-d.chello.nl] has joined #openttd |
| 14:56 | -!- | Devedse [~Devedse@d100059.upc-d.chello.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] |
| 14:57 | -!- | Chris_Booth[ph] [~chrisboot@host81-154-194-79.range81-154.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] |
| 15:03 | <@planetmaker> | andythenorth, did you notice that explosion graphics differ if you explode one tile or more than one? |
| 15:04 | <xiong> | No no no! It's fine as is. No explosion graphics would be even better. We don't want *more*. |
| 15:06 | <xiong> | If you're dynamiting something it's likely because you want to build something else there. Balls of fire do not help with this; they do not dissipate while paused and take too long to go away when the game is running. |
| 15:08 | -!- | JVassie [~James@2.27.104.165] has joined #openttd |
| 15:19 | <Rhamphoryncus> | If build-while-paused in enabled they should dissipate, just like construction costs and income do. Patch it. :P |
| 15:22 | <V453000> | frosch123: :D |
| 15:25 | -!- | lmergen [~lmergen@5352EA70.cm-6-3d.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #openttd |
| 15:25 | <@Terkhen> | hello |
| 15:27 | <@planetmaker> | kyosuke1989 <-- oskari89 is that you? Then you could as well go initially for object tiles for those non-track station parts. It's easier as it can be done in NML |
| 15:28 | <oskari89> | Yes that's me. |
| 15:28 | -!- | krinn [~krinn@183.210.73.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #openttd |
| 15:28 | <krinn> | hi all |
| 15:29 | <oskari89> | Is there some tutorial for nml object coding? |
| 15:29 | <krinn> | i have a trouble with a vehicle that doesn't answer to AIEngine.IsArticulated and act like one, newgrf can also lie about articulated status ? |
| 15:29 | <oskari89> | NML seems much more simpler than that NFO. |
| 15:29 | <frosch123> | Rhamphoryncus: i think 1.2 even behaves likes that |
| 15:29 | <@Yexo> | <krinn> i have a trouble with a vehicle that doesn't answer to AIEngine.IsArticulated and act like one, newgrf can also lie about articulated status ? <- what do you mean exactly? |
| 15:29 | <@Yexo> | how does a vehicle "act like one"? |
| 15:29 | <Rhamphoryncus> | Hrm. I'm not seeing any fireballs |
| 15:30 | <krinn> | the engine answer false, but i cannot use it with "classic" station |
| 15:30 | <@Yexo> | oskari89: http://www.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NMLTutorial |
| 15:30 | <Rhamphoryncus> | Yeah, the fireballs show normally but aren't created when paused |
| 15:30 | <krinn> | AIOrder always refuse then |
| 15:30 | <oskari89> | Thx :) |
| 15:30 | <@Yexo> | krinn: talking about a bus/truck? |
| 15:30 | <@planetmaker> | oskari89, there might not be an exact tutorial for objects. But of course there's the ^ |
| 15:30 | <krinn> | Yexo, yes |
| 15:31 | <krinn> | wait a sec i'll gave you the message if i try by hands to order it to a station (my ai cannot get that error) |
| 15:31 | <@planetmaker> | and for objects you can find something in ogfx+landscape... though that might be way over the top compared to what you need |
| 15:31 | <@planetmaker> | it works basically the same as industry tiles or airport tiles which you find in FIRS or ogfx+airports repos |
| 15:31 | <krinn> | Yexo, translate from french to english it says "cannot add order, that vehicle cannot goes in that station" |
| 15:32 | <@planetmaker> | or ogfx+industries for that matter |
| 15:32 | <@Yexo> | krinn: which AIOrder function are you using? |
| 15:32 | <@planetmaker> | krinn, bus vs truck? |
| 15:32 | <@Yexo> | and what error message does your AI get? |
| 15:32 | <krinn> | the classic one, but the AI cannot get any error, just it fail, the error message comes from me switching to play as my ai and trying to set the order with the GUI |
| 15:32 | <krinn> | bus |
| 15:32 | <@planetmaker> | and the station is also bus? |
| 15:32 | <krinn> | ikarus 180 |
| 15:32 | <@Yexo> | an AI can always get an error |
| 15:32 | <krinn> | from ikarus set |
| 15:33 | <krinn> | Yexo, no, the ai get the failure, but ERR_NONE |
| 15:33 | <@Yexo> | are you using AppendOrder() ? |
| 15:33 | <krinn> | 2s checking how i add them, but must be that |
| 15:34 | <krinn> | if (!AIOrder.AppendOrder(veh, homedepot, AIOrder.AIOF_STOP_IN_DEPOT)) |
| 15:34 | <krinn> | { DError("Vehicle refuse goto depot order",2,"cCarrier::VehicleSetDepotOrder"); } |
| 15:34 | <krinn> | Derror display the message + the last error string |
| 15:34 | <krinn> | and the result is boolean = false error=NONE |
| 15:34 | <@Yexo> | are you sure "homedepot" is correct? |
| 15:34 | <krinn> | and that engine bypass my valuate(AIEngine.IsArticulated) keepvalue(0) |
| 15:35 | <krinn> | not refusing depot order |
| 15:35 | -!- | KritiK [~Maxim@89-178-180-33.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #openttd |
| 15:35 | <krinn> | only station order |
| 15:35 | <krinn> | and it's a bus station, not a truck one :) |
| 15:35 | <krinn> | just a classic station, not one "on the road" |
| 15:36 | <@Yexo> | AIOrder.AIOF_STOP_IN_DEPOT <- that does not make sense for a "goto station" order |
| 15:36 | <krinn> | that's why i'm lost, it really answer false to AIEngine.IsArticulated but looks like it is |
| 15:37 | <krinn> | oh sorry Yexo this one a sample of how i set order |
| 15:37 | <krinn> | didn't see first it was for a depot |
| 15:37 | <krinn> | but this one work, setting a depot work, only station are refuse |
| 15:37 | <@Yexo> | and you can manually reproduce the problem? Without any AI I mean? |
| 15:37 | <@planetmaker> | I think you should paste your relevant code. And maybe your testgame |
| 15:37 | <krinn> | yes |
| 15:37 | <@planetmaker> | this is getting quite confusing |
| 15:37 | <krinn> | when i play as my AI i try by hands setttings order and it says "that vehcile cannot use that station" |
| 15:38 | <@planetmaker> | ah |
| 15:38 | <krinn> | there's no really a problem with code, just the newgrf and NOAI api |
| 15:38 | <@Yexo> | "ikarus 180" looks like an articulated engine |
| 15:38 | <krinn> | it looks like yes |
| 15:38 | <krinn> | but my query to IsArticlated says false |
| 15:39 | <krinn> | so it isn't remove from my engine list of possible bus to use |
| 15:39 | <krinn> | and so the problem comes |
| 15:39 | <krinn> | it really looks (the grphic) and act like articulated engine |
| 15:39 | <krinn> | but AIEngine.IsArticalted says false |
| 15:40 | <@Yexo> | it's definitely articulated |
| 15:40 | <krinn> | but it says false |
| 15:40 | <krinn> | hence my question: can newgrf also lie to IsArticulated :) |
| 15:41 | -!- | Scuddles [~notme@cm22.epsilon82.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [] |
| 15:41 | <@Yexo> | no |
| 15:41 | <krinn> | then i found a bug :) |
| 15:41 | <krinn> | because this one lie |
| 15:41 | <@planetmaker> | in your code? :-P |
| 15:41 | <krinn> | no, just create a simple ai if you wish |
| 15:41 | <krinn> | you just have to show result of AIEngine.IsArticulated result you'll see |
| 15:41 | <@Yexo> | there is at least some bug in the openttd code |
| 15:42 | <@Yexo> | CountArticulatedParts will return 0 when no vehicle can be allocated |
| 15:42 | <@Yexo> | which is wrong since it's used in the AI API |
| 15:43 | <@Yexo> | though my guess would be the newgrf might be returning inconsistent information too |
| 15:43 | <krinn> | if you wish test, i have in openttdcoop post an aivehicletest |
| 15:43 | <krinn> | but i can't find the link :) |
| 15:43 | <krinn> | the search engine there is a bit weak |
| 15:44 | <@Yexo> | http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/ai-aivehicletest ? |
| 15:44 | <@Yexo> | google works fine with site:openttdcoop.org |
| 15:44 | <krinn> | oh yes |
| 15:44 | <krinn> | that one |
| 15:44 | <krinn> | run it |
| 15:44 | <krinn> | switch to the AI player and edit the X label with Ikarus 180 |
| 15:45 | <krinn> | if you have the ikarus set, you'll see the answer for many AI query, and answer for AIEngine.IsArticulated will show a false |
| 15:46 | <krinn> | oh wait i could paste there the result from the console if you wish |
| 15:46 | <@Yexo> | I've run it already |
| 15:46 | <krinn> | it's a simple AI that just query the noai api and display result |
| 15:48 | <krinn> | btw using 1.1.5, i think noai api 1.0 |
| 15:52 | <krinn> | (i'm sooooo skill at finding bugs...) |
| 16:09 | <@Yexo> | krinn: as long as the engine is not yet build, it's not articulated |
| 16:09 | <@Yexo> | but any vehicle build from that engine type will be articulated |
| 16:09 | <@Yexo> | it's not strictly a bug in the newgrf (it works according to the spec) |
| 16:10 | <@Yexo> | however there is some ambiguity there, we'll try something different in openttd |
| 16:10 | <krinn> | so, we end with INVALID_ENGINE ? |
| 16:10 | <krinn> | and i=1 while return i - 1; == 0 |
| 16:11 | <@Yexo> | yep |
| 16:11 | <krinn> | strange only that engine does that |
| 16:11 | <@Yexo> | the newgrf spec doesn't specify that a newgrf must implement the articulated callback for the "build menu chain" which is called when a vehicle doesn't exist |
| 16:11 | <krinn> | we might have others too i never seen, but others looks to works |
| 16:12 | <krinn> | newgrf bug so, not really newgrf, but the specs should enforce callback usage |
| 16:12 | <@Yexo> | but they don't, hence it's currently nog a bug in the newgrf |
| 16:13 | <krinn> | but how can openttd return its capacity ? |
| 16:13 | <@Yexo> | and in general we try to avoid changes to the spec that break existing newgrfs |
| 16:13 | <krinn> | i mean i saw openttd get the capacity for each articulated part : so engine is also not built, but capacity is count |
| 16:13 | <@Yexo> | the newgrf can fake the capacity for the first part |
| 16:13 | <Rhamphoryncus> | I need a break from thinking about all these curves.. time for some minecraft :D |
| 16:14 | <krinn> | Yexo, this also explain why newgrf can lie about the engine length |
| 16:14 | <Rhamphoryncus> | Doh, server is down |
| 16:14 | -!- | [1]Mark [~Mark@5ED06D58.cm-7-1b.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #openttd |
| 16:14 | -!- | Markavian [~Markavian@j616s.co.uk] has joined #openttd |
| 16:14 | -!- | Mark is now known as Guest6283 |
| 16:14 | -!- | Markk is now known as Mark |
| 16:15 | <Rubidium> | Rhamphoryncus: my (and OpenTTD's) server work perfectly okay |
| 16:15 | <Rhamphoryncus> | Minecraft server |
| 16:15 | <Rhamphoryncus> | And it's merely turned off :P |
| 16:16 | <Rhamphoryncus> | (But openttd is MUCH more reliable than minecraft..) |
| 16:16 | -!- | DOUK [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-14-177.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #openttd |
| 16:16 | <krinn> | Yexo, how about returning non zero for if (!HasBit(EngInfo(engine_type)->callback_mask, CBM_VEHICLE_ARTIC_ENGINE)) return 0; |
| 16:16 | <@Yexo> | we've been discussing that :) |
| 16:16 | <krinn> | this way, openttd must assume non callback = articulated |
| 16:16 | <krinn> | oh :) |
| 16:17 | <krinn> | and just writing it down here i realize why: classic engine newgrf makers certainly doesn't set the callback if they build a non articulated engine :( |
| 16:20 | -!- | mahmoud [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-122-219.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] |
| 16:20 | -!- | Guest6283 [~Mark@5ED06D58.cm-7-1b.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] |
| 16:21 | <krinn> | i think CountArticulatedParts should be 1 base and not 0 base, so we could see if >1 articulated if 1 non articulated and if 0 missing the callback (no info) |
| 16:21 | <@Yexo> | missing callback means non-articulated |
| 16:21 | <@Yexo> | there is no way around that |
| 16:22 | <krinn> | how about then forcing the engine creation? |
| 16:22 | <@Yexo> | the change that we would make: if callback flag is set: assume the engine is articulated |
| 16:22 | <krinn> | by telling return CountArticulatedParts(engine_id, false) != 0; |
| 16:22 | <@Yexo> | technically a newgrf can set the articulated_engine flag but not return any articulated parts, so it wouldn't really be articulated |
| 16:23 | <@Yexo> | in this case the AI would think the engine was articulated while actually it's not (=the reverse of your current problem) |
| 16:23 | <@Yexo> | I don't think that situation would lead to problems, since anywhere you can use an articulated vehicle you can use a non-articulated one too |
| 16:23 | <krinn> | the false shouldn't force openttd to build an engine to get a real answer ? |
| 16:23 | <krinn> | i see a v = new Vehicle() if false |
| 16:23 | <krinn> | for the bool purchase_window |
| 16:26 | <krinn> | i love the : "so it doesn't matter how many articulated parts there are" :D |
| 16:26 | -!- | lmergen [~lmergen@5352EA70.cm-6-3d.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] |
| 16:26 | <krinn> | it looks like the bill gates "640k will be enough..." kind of citation :) |
| 16:27 | <@Yexo> | that is not the problem |
| 16:27 | <@Yexo> | and it's not that kind of citation, this one is correct |
| 16:28 | <krinn> | looks like a dead end, it doesn't matter for openttd as no one wish see how many articulated parts are there in the gui, but that's different for noai |
| 16:28 | <@Yexo> | it's like if you want to know if you have enough money to buy a book, you go to the store and try to buy it. At home you first check if your wallet isn't empty. If it's empty, you say "I don't have to go to the store, it doesn't matter how cheap the book is, I don't have money anyway." |
| 16:29 | <krinn> | clear now |
| 16:29 | <krinn> | but if you cannot enforce articlated specs of newgrf, this is mostly unsolvable |
| 16:32 | <Hirundo> | Currently a newgrf can make vehicles bought on Wednesdays articulated and those bought on all other weekdays not |
| 16:33 | <krinn> | yes, but currently noai cannot know if it's wednesdays or not, and if the newgrf wish do that... |
| 16:33 | <krinn> | totally blind |
| 16:34 | <Hirundo> | NoAI can get the current game date and then determine if it's a (in-game) Wednesday |
| 16:34 | <Hirundo> | but that newgrf may also decide to change its behaviour depending on a parameter, or the presence of another grf, or even a parameter of that other grf |
| 16:35 | <Hirundo> | So indeed, for all practical purposes you're blind :-) |
| 16:35 | <krinn> | :) |
| 16:35 | <krinn> | we can still create a list of engine and blacklist any engine that doesn't accept the AIOrder, but any ai then must build and use its own engine table |
| 16:35 | <andythenorth> | same issue for NoGo too btw |
| 16:36 | <krinn> | NoGo is just an ai |
| 16:36 | <krinn> | if i get it right :) |
| 16:36 | <@planetmaker> | not quite. It has different powers. But conceptually yes |
| 16:36 | <@Yexo> | there are differences in the API (some functions are only available for NoGo, some only for NoAI) |
| 16:39 | <krinn> | you wish a filebug for it ? it looks a simple issue, with a real hard solve |
| 16:40 | <@Yexo> | http://devs.openttd.org/~yexo/articulated.diff <- seems simply enough |
| 16:41 | <krinn> | hu? |
| 16:41 | <krinn> | this one should return false if HasBit isn't set right ? |
| 16:41 | -!- | Chris_Booth[ph] [~chrisboot@host81-154-194-79.range81-154.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd |
| 16:41 | <andythenorth> | Yexo: enforce the buy menu cb in newgrf v9 :P |
| 16:41 | <krinn> | so the AI will still get false and think the vehicle isn't articulated |
| 16:42 | <@Yexo> | krinn: IsArticulatedEngine returns true if the CBM_VEHICLE_ARTIC_ENGINE flag is set |
| 16:42 | <krinn> | lol but the problem is that this flag isn't set |
| 16:42 | <@Yexo> | that flag is set for the Ikarus 180 |
| 16:42 | <krinn> | oh |
| 16:42 | <Eddi|zuHause> | Yexo: but the artic callback could return "not articulated", even if the bit is set |
| 16:42 | <@Yexo> | if the flag isn't set the vehicle is definitely not articulated |
| 16:43 | <@Yexo> | Eddi|zuHause: yes, but for the NoAI API this is the lesser evil |
| 16:43 | <krinn> | lol wonder how many newgrf are lying around non articulated with that flag set :) |
| 16:43 | <@Yexo> | returning "is articulated" when actually it "is not articulated" does not lead to as many problems as the other way around |
| 16:44 | <Chris_Booth[ph]> | Yexo: if it's an AI issue is in not best to force |
| 16:44 | <Eddi|zuHause> | krinn: it could just be something generic, like "i set all vehicles to have this callback, whether i use that is determined later" |
| 16:44 | <krinn> | yep as my ai will just clear a non articulated vehicle, not a big issue to lost one |
| 16:44 | <Chris_Booth[ph]> | Then they can only use drive through stops |
| 16:44 | <Eddi|zuHause> | Yexo: why can't it just run the callback without being able to allocate the vehicles? |
| 16:45 | <@Yexo> | Eddi|zuHause: it does that |
| 16:45 | <@Yexo> | but in this particular case the newgrf doesn't have the callback chain in the main menu |
| 16:45 | <Eddi|zuHause> | Yexo: so call it as the purchase menu? |
| 16:46 | <Eddi|zuHause> | oh, i see what you mean |
| 16:46 | <Eddi|zuHause> | it branches differently in the action3 |
| 16:46 | <Eddi|zuHause> | and there's probably no foolproof method |
| 16:47 | -!- | LordPixaII [~pixa@79.68.97.12] has joined #openttd |
| 16:47 | <@Yexo> | calling the "normal" chain, but that expects vehicle variables to be there, so you'd need to really allocate the vehicles, only to delete them later |
| 16:47 | <@Yexo> | and even that can/will fail for your wednesday example |
| 16:48 | <Eddi|zuHause> | it's certainly not "my" example... |
| 16:48 | <@Yexo> | oh, sorry, Hirundo gave it above |
| 16:49 | <CIA-1> | OpenTTD: yexo * r24029 /trunk/src/ (3 files in 2 dirs): -Change: [NoAI] make AIEngine::IsArticulated return true if the articulated callback flag is set, don't try to run the callback. |
| 16:51 | <krinn> | thank you guys for the solve |
| 16:51 | -!- | Pixa [~pixa@85.210.76.192] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] |
| 16:52 | -!- | Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.a98.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #openttd |
| 16:54 | -!- | Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@host81-154-194-79.range81-154.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd |
| 16:55 | <@planetmaker> | <andythenorth> Yexo: enforce the buy menu cb in newgrf v9 :P <-- I'd rather say: "no special purchase stuff except graphics" |
| 16:55 | <andythenorth> | nah, that won't work :) |
| 16:55 | <@planetmaker> | why not? |
| 16:55 | <andythenorth> | because purchase menu doesn't know consist capacity etc |
| 16:56 | <andythenorth> | you have to tell it such things |
| 16:56 | <andythenorth> | well I do anyway :P |
| 16:56 | <@planetmaker> | run the actual consist capacity CB for that. But no special branch |
| 16:56 | <@planetmaker> | though... yes, difficult |
| 16:56 | <@Yexo> | it doesn't know currently, but the code can be changed to build a vehicle (including all articulated parts), compute consist capacity/other information, then destroy the vehicle again |
| 16:56 | <@planetmaker> | bad idea :-) |
| 16:57 | <@planetmaker> | (mine) |
| 16:57 | <krinn> | some newgrf authors could build buggy engine for AI if they could switch properties like that no ? |
| 16:57 | <andythenorth> | it has to handle cargo subtypes and such |
| 16:57 | <andythenorth> | you can see HEQS nfo code for examples |
| 16:57 | <@planetmaker> | krinn, why "could". They can |
| 16:57 | <andythenorth> | or probably BANDIT nml |
| 16:57 | <krinn> | i mean showing capacity of 1000 and then when brought setting it to 0... |
| 16:57 | <@planetmaker> | and they sometimes do |
| 16:57 | <krinn> | planetmaker, i was thinking that |
| 16:57 | <andythenorth> | also wagon power, weight etc has to be handled |
| 16:58 | <@planetmaker> | andythenorth, I know that all that needs handling. But when just summing over all articulated parts as if built, that's much more fail-proof |
| 16:59 | <andythenorth> | shrug :) |
| 16:59 | <andythenorth> | I really don't mind how it's implemented |
| 17:00 | <krinn> | andythenorth, must be why we get bug like that next :) |
| 17:00 | <andythenorth> | I'm not too bothered if the spec changes either, as long as changes are aware of why current approach is used |
| 17:00 | <@planetmaker> | why is the current approach used? |
| 17:01 | <@planetmaker> | only reason I can imagine is "I don't want to test-build a vehicle for the purchase list" |
| 17:01 | -!- | Chris_Booth[ph] [~chrisboot@host81-154-194-79.range81-154.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi] |
| 17:01 | <krinn> | Yexo, did you check ikarus 280 ? |
| 17:02 | <krinn> | looks like gfx also show an articulated bus |
| 17:02 | <krinn> | and engine return false for that one too |
| 17:03 | <Eddi|zuHause> | Yexo: maybe generally building "test" vehicles may be useful to clean up the whole purchase-list callback mess |
| 17:04 | <andythenorth> | planetmaker: probably hysterical raisins :P |
| 17:04 | <Eddi|zuHause> | people have been complaining that the purchase list stats for complicated articulated chains are "wrong" for ages |
| 17:05 | <andythenorth> | they should man up and fix it |
| 17:05 | <andythenorth> | it only took me a day to find a good non-insane solution :P |
| 17:05 | <andythenorth> | where's the problem? :| |
| 17:06 | <krinn> | andythenorth you're newgrf maker no ? |
| 17:07 | <andythenorth> | yup |
| 17:08 | <krinn> | if you did like that author did, would you change to handle the callback ? |
| 17:10 | <krinn> | just to know if i could take time to find who made that newgrf with ikarus to tell him about the issue |
| 17:11 | <@planetmaker> | andythenorth, IMHO it is indeed conceptually wrong that there's a separate chain where the NewGRF author decides what to return as display values for the properties. Which can differ totally from what you get when actually building it |
| 17:11 | <andythenorth> | planetmaker: no argument |
| 17:11 | <@planetmaker> | as it both, is more work for the NewGRF author and even with the best of intentions and effort can fail |
| 17:11 | <andythenorth> | I am having to provide quite a lot of brittle code (in HEQS) to make the buy menu match what is built |
| 17:12 | <andythenorth> | in BANDIT, life is much easier, the build script sorts it out |
| 17:12 | <andythenorth> | one tram in HEQS took an afternoon |
| 17:17 | <krinn> | i think newgrf authors only design/code their newgrf specs base on openttd experience, they should be more aware of noai issue |
| 17:17 | <andythenorth> | krinn: your point is well made |
| 17:17 | <andythenorth> | no idea how to solve it though |
| 17:18 | <andythenorth> | there aren't enough hours per day to deal with all the complexity |
| 17:18 | <andythenorth> | and for hysterical raisins, bits of the API are...at best messy |
| 17:18 | <krinn> | as long as they are aware noai exist, this should remove many errors/tweaks needs |
| 17:20 | <andythenorth> | what are the issues? |
| 17:20 | <krinn> | until the fix hit the noai api any ai will fail on that bus |
| 17:21 | <krinn> | and this mean handling all engine and a blacklist, blacklisting any "ikarus" in engine name... something not really nice or easy to do as first sight, like remove an articulated vehicle should do |
| 17:22 | <andythenorth> | you should refuse to handle such grfs, and post errors |
| 17:23 | <andythenorth> | noai authors have been a good source of bug reports / change requests for FIRS |
| 17:23 | <andythenorth> | it makes for cleaner newgrf |
| 17:23 | <@planetmaker> | krinn, normally NewGRF authors should not need care about AI |
| 17:23 | <andythenorth> | +1 |
| 17:23 | <andythenorth> | I don't / won't do anything special to support AI |
| 17:23 | <krinn> | newgrf authors should care about openttd: and noai like newgrf are openttd |
| 17:23 | <@planetmaker> | AI should get all required info by means of the API |
| 17:23 | <andythenorth> | but cleaning up mistakes is not special support |
| 17:24 | <@planetmaker> | andythenorth, support for AI can be part of writing NewGRFs. Like special information on categorizing stuff |
| 17:24 | <krinn> | planetmaker, even the fix now exist this mean for me per example, the noai will never be able to query how many articulated parts a vehicle have |
| 17:24 | <krinn> | i don't see any usage right now for that, just an example what this fix will imply |
| 17:24 | <@planetmaker> | krinn, that's also not important. Nor accessible to the human player |
| 17:25 | <krinn> | not important for human isn't the same for an AI |
| 17:25 | <@planetmaker> | where does it matter? The only imporant info is arcticulated yes/no |
| 17:25 | <@planetmaker> | or rather: can use normal road stops |
| 17:26 | <krinn> | right now yes, i already said i don't see the usage for that, just that because of that, i see the noai cannot get it |
| 17:26 | <frosch123> | krinn: when we get vehicle construction sandboxes, ais and humans will be able to query everything :) |
| 17:27 | <krinn> | just to cite you planetmaker >> and AI should get all required info by means of the API |
| 17:27 | <krinn> | see my point ? |
| 17:27 | <krinn> | even not useful i know, this cite cannot be true |
| 17:27 | <@planetmaker> | no. "required info" cannot be more info than available to a human player |
| 17:28 | <krinn> | oh, and AI should act like human player base on 0 info |
| 17:28 | <frosch123> | well, a ai will never be able to understand the readme |
| 17:28 | <krinn> | sorry, human player at least have "visual" info |
| 17:28 | <krinn> | frosch123, right |
| 17:28 | <@planetmaker> | krinn, the visual info will not tell you the amount of articulated parts reliably |
| 17:28 | <frosch123> | e.g. it has no chance to detect whether a vehicle has constant running cost, or whether they depend on speed |
| 17:28 | -!- | FLHerne [~francis_h@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #openttd |
| 17:28 | <frosch123> | and there will never be an api function to query this from the purchase list |
| 17:29 | <@planetmaker> | I know of grfs which use invisbible articulated parts |
| 17:29 | <krinn> | lol oh my planetmaker i wasn't aware of that |
| 17:29 | <krinn> | :) |
| 17:29 | <frosch123> | number of articulated parts? what is that good for |
| 17:29 | <frosch123> | i think what krinn wants to know is the length of the vehicle |
| 17:30 | <@planetmaker> | that's a different thing entirely |
| 17:30 | <frosch123> | there is no point in the number of articulated parts, is there? |
| 17:30 | <@planetmaker> | ^^ yup |
| 17:30 | <krinn> | frosch123, yep, something as simple as that is a nightmare for an ai |
| 17:30 | <frosch123> | krinn: it's also for humans :p |
| 17:30 | <krinn> | like the wagon that is length 10 and when buy length 15 : nice you've build a train too long |
| 17:30 | <@planetmaker> | also for humans |
| 17:31 | <@planetmaker> | this stuff has a lot of historical bear traps built into it |
| 17:31 | -!- | Progman [~progman@p57A1A049.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] |
| 17:31 | <frosch123> | the only solution we can offer for this is a construction sandbox |
| 17:31 | <frosch123> | but you won't be able to cut 90% of grf features just to make it easy for ais and boring for humans :p |
| 17:31 | <@planetmaker> | :-) |
| 17:32 | <andythenorth> | there is no practical way that HEQS could provide accurate AI information about the trams |
| 17:32 | <andythenorth> | the API we have simply has no concept for that kind of stuff |
| 17:32 | <frosch123> | andythenorth: construction sandboxes would also make it easier for newgrfs :p |
| 17:32 | <andythenorth> | frosch123: so I see :) |
| 17:32 | <krinn> | i don't want cut 90% newgrf features, but some simple thing could be made to ease thing |
| 17:32 | <@planetmaker> | andythenorth, for all it's worth: it suffices to know "carries cargo X". "has length Y" and "has top speed Z" and can be built from 1843 to 1932 |
| 17:33 | <andythenorth> | has length Y for refit A |
| 17:33 | <krinn> | and just costs! |
| 17:33 | <andythenorth> | solving this would require 'frameworking' the newgrf spec |
| 17:34 | <krinn> | to see what vehicle is the cheapest to build to carry A, an ai must build and refit all vehicle to compare |
| 17:34 | <andythenorth> | 'frameworking' = provide a wide range of inflexible built-in functions |
| 17:34 | <@planetmaker> | krinn, so does the human player |
| 17:34 | <@planetmaker> | or read the readme (if any explaining it) |
| 17:34 | <andythenorth> | krinn: do you also refit to all subtypes for a vehicle? |
| 17:34 | <frosch123> | andythenorth: ais do not know about subtypes :p |
| 17:34 | <@planetmaker> | :-D |
| 17:34 | <krinn> | the human player learn it 1 time, the ai learn it (if coded and it was a pain) every time its run |
| 17:34 | <andythenorth> | they're screwed then ;) :D |
| 17:35 | <@planetmaker> | krinn, save that info |
| 17:35 | <krinn> | i could, but we're limit by save take too long time, so i won't |
| 17:35 | <@planetmaker> | you've to learn it for each game then, but well |
| 17:36 | <@planetmaker> | memorizing all NewGRFs also takes too much time. So I don't :-P |
| 17:36 | <krinn> | but the point was that the human save it in his mind, while the ai need to learn at each new party even if it save it in savegame |
| 17:36 | <@planetmaker> | you can build that logic into your AI's file |
| 17:36 | <@planetmaker> | can AIs query the (exact) NewGRFs? |
| 17:36 | <@Yexo> | no |
| 17:36 | <krinn> | no :( |
| 17:37 | <krinn> | same, AI cannot know what newgrf are in use |
| 17:37 | <@planetmaker> | hm. Ok. Plan foiled |
| 17:38 | <krinn> | per example if i blacklist any ikarus name, i might blacklist a newgrf with ikarus bus X that have its callback properly set... |
| 17:39 | <@planetmaker> | The better way is in any case for the AI to query the game for needed properties of stuff |
| 17:39 | <@planetmaker> | way more flexible |
| 17:39 | <@planetmaker> | Even when it has to do it for every start |
| 17:40 | -!- | DDR [~chatzilla@d99-199-11-52.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #openttd |
| 17:40 | <@planetmaker> | I'm not 100% sure whether it'd be a good idea to allow direct query |
| 17:40 | <@planetmaker> | It has pros. But also cons |
| 17:40 | <krinn> | as long as noai could be cheat, ai author will get lost |
| 17:42 | <frosch123> | planetmaker: you mean a blacklist of bad vehicle grfs for ais on bananas? :p |
| 17:42 | <krinn> | frosch123 bad newgrf for some AI could be good newgrf for more advance ai |
| 17:42 | <@planetmaker> | frosch123, not really :-P |
| 17:43 | <rane> | can i generate landscape settings with the guy for a server? |
| 17:43 | <rane> | guy->gui |
| 17:43 | <@Yexo> | rane: yes |
| 17:43 | <rane> | are they saved to a cfg? |
| 17:43 | <@Yexo> | yes |
| 17:43 | <@Yexo> | to openttd.cfg |
| 17:43 | <@Yexo> | see the readme where you can find it |
| 17:44 | <andythenorth> | http://teddziuba.com/2010/10/taco-bell-programming.html |
| 17:46 | <krinn> | that taco bell answer would be blacklist any ikarus name :P |
| 17:48 | -!- | cypher [~Miranda@ip-86-49-67-4.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] |
| 17:48 | -!- | collinp [~collin@h73.133.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has joined #openttd |
| 17:58 | <frosch123> | night kids |
| 17:58 | -!- | frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-4d009137.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] |
| 17:59 | <rane> | landscape = tropic is awfully arid |
| 18:01 | <krinn> | Yexo, that ikarus 180 also do glitches in openttd list of running vehicle :P |
| 18:01 | <@Yexo> | so report it to the newgrf author :) |
| 18:01 | <krinn> | the picture looks like it is "eaten" by the vehicle number sometimes |
| 18:03 | <andythenorth> | ha ha |
| 18:03 | <andythenorth> | http://teddziuba.com/2009/10/i-dont-code-in-my-free-time.html |
| 18:03 | * | andythenorth codes in his free time, for fun |
| 18:03 | <andythenorth> | good article |
| 18:03 | * | andythenorth goes to bed in his free time, also |
| 18:05 | <SpComb> | how terrible |
| 18:05 | <SpComb> | that guy |
| 18:08 | <krinn> | this guy is mad :) |
| 18:09 | <@Terkhen> | good night |
| 18:09 | -!- | valhallasw [~valhallas@193.52.24.37] has quit [Quit: leaving] |
| 18:09 | <krinn> | it's just logic to ask that to a dev, just like you would prefer a driver that use his car everydays vs one that just got his license to drive your kids at school |
| 18:10 | <andythenorth> | he's slightly trolling |
| 18:10 | <andythenorth> | read the rest of his posts, he's a lot fun |
| 18:10 | <andythenorth> | I employee people who refuse to write code in their spare time |
| 18:10 | <andythenorth> | there's nothing wrong with their code |
| 18:11 | <andythenorth> | I've employed people who loved writing code in their spare time who were just awful |
| 18:11 | <krinn> | there's nothing wrong too with someone who got his license, else he wouldn't have it right? |
| 18:11 | <krinn> | it's just about logic, even logic isn't truth sometimes |
| 18:12 | <krinn> | eheh i suppose alain prost got accident too :) |
| 18:12 | <Zuu> | Well, young men are more probable to have a car accident. |
| 18:13 | <krinn> | yep zuu, just like dev coding in their free time should have stronger knowledge: logic |
| 18:14 | <krinn> | not always true, but you can't blame anyone from assuming that |
| 18:14 | <krinn> | we have a story here (france) that alain prost was caught at 320km/h on one of our route (limit to 130km/h) with a ferrari |
| 18:15 | <krinn> | and cops leave him gone away without ticket seeing it was alain prost (for the fame & the driving skill), who knows! |
| 18:16 | <krinn> | but i admit it's a story :) our cops are bitches |
| 18:16 | <@Yexo> | andythenorth: I like his style of posting |
| 18:17 | <andythenorth> | he's funny |
| 18:17 | <andythenorth> | I lost my evening to reading his stuff :P |
| 18:17 | <@Yexo> | teddziuba.com/2011/10/straight-talk-on-event-loops.html "Since it's now clear that reading comprehension and critical thinking are not strong suits of the Node.js programmer, I would suggest that all Noders reading this article read it aloud, slowly and loudly, like an American tourist trying to find a train station in Tokyo." |
| 18:17 | <krinn> | i think it's sarcasm, just like the picture use with the cute rabbit eaten |
| 18:18 | <@Yexo> | sure, partly it is |
| 18:21 | -!- | Devedse_ [~Devedse@d100059.upc-d.chello.nl] has quit [Quit: Ik ga weg] |
| 18:25 | <krinn> | Suppose you're a less-than-expert programmer, which Node seems to attract in droves for some reason. |
| 18:25 | <krinn> | troll bait :) |
| 18:30 | <krinn> | night all |
| 18:30 | -!- | krinn [~krinn@183.210.73.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Quit: Quitte] |
| 18:30 | -!- | Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@host81-154-194-79.range81-154.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.1 [Firefox 11.0/20120310173008]] |
| 18:37 | <andythenorth> | "Don't do image processing work with PIL unless you have proven that command-line ImageMagick won't do the job" |
| 18:37 | <andythenorth> | :D |
| 18:37 | <andythenorth> | http://teddziuba.com/2010/09/programming-things-i-wish-i-knew.html |
| 18:43 | <Zuu> | Are 11 stickies in the 32bit forum really needed? |
| 18:43 | <@Yexo> | no |
| 18:43 | <Zuu> | Does the one with most stkies win? |
| 18:43 | <Zuu> | :-) |
| 18:44 | <@Yexo> | jupix and pikka are moderators there |
| 18:47 | -!- | kkb110__ [~kkb110@cpe-69-203-124-125.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #openttd |
| 18:47 | -!- | kkb110 [~kkb110@cpe-69-203-124-125.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] |
| 18:58 | -!- | andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] |
| 19:01 | -!- | TGYoshi [~TGYoshi@86.81.146.146] has quit [Quit: Popidopidopido] |
| 19:03 | -!- | oskari89 [~oskari89@213-186-253-165.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [] |
| 19:03 | -!- | smoovi [~smoovi@e178193134.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] |
| 19:05 | -!- | FLHerne [~francis_h@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has left #openttd [] |
| 19:06 | -!- | Pikka [~chatzilla@d58-111-74-170.rdl800.qld.optusnet.com.au] has joined #openttd |
| 19:12 | -!- | JVassie [~James@2.27.104.165] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] |
| 19:15 | -!- | TWerkhoven[l] [~twerkhove@cpc3-linl7-2-0-cust522.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: He who can look into the future, has a brighter future to look into] |
| 19:17 | -!- | George|2 [~George@212.113.107.39] has joined #openttd |
| 19:17 | -!- | George is now known as Guest6302 |
| 19:17 | -!- | George|2 is now known as George |
| 19:22 | -!- | cypher [~Miranda@ip-86-49-67-207.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd |
| 19:22 | -!- | Guest6302 [~George@212.113.107.39] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] |
| 19:24 | -!- | cl8 [~cl8@host-92-3-253-43.as43234.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] |
| 19:34 | -!- | sla_ro|master [slaco@95.76.26.172] has quit [Quit: DANGER sla.ro is OFFLINE DANGER] |
| 19:43 | -!- | Pixa [~pixa@85.210.73.199] has joined #openttd |
| 19:49 | -!- | LordPixaII [~pixa@79.68.97.12] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] |
| 19:55 | <@peter1138> | Pikka, Pikka Pikka Pikka Pikka |
| 19:56 | <Pikka> | peter1138, peter1138, peter1138, peter1139 |
| 19:56 | <@peter1138> | do you fancy sorting out the 32bit sticky mess? |
| 19:56 | <Pikka> | wokay |
| 19:57 | <@peter1138> | there's like eleventy million stickies |
| 19:57 | <Pikka> | just a mo, I'll go look |
| 19:57 | <@peter1138> | pretty much all obsolete or just, er, crap, heh |
| 19:58 | <Pikka> | okay, what needs to go? |
| 19:58 | <Pikka> | or what needs to stay? |
| 20:00 | <@peter1138> | good question. i'd say all :p |
| 20:00 | <@peter1138> | damn |
| 20:00 | <@peter1138> | i suppose it should be jupix sorting it out, as he did the deed in the first place |
| 20:01 | <Pikka> | mmhm :P |
| 20:02 | -!- | Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.a98.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] |
| 20:07 | -!- | LordPixaII [~pixa@85.210.64.138] has joined #openttd |
| 20:12 | -!- | Pixa [~pixa@85.210.73.199] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] |
| 20:15 | -!- | pjpe [ade6a119@ircip1.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd |
| 20:16 | -!- | Pixa [~pixa@85.210.73.163] has joined #openttd |
| 20:20 | -!- | LordPixaII [~pixa@85.210.64.138] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] |
| 20:25 | -!- | KritiK [~Maxim@89-178-180-33.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: Leaving] |
| 20:36 | -!- | LordPixaII [~pixa@85.210.70.122] has joined #openttd |
| 20:41 | -!- | Pixa [~pixa@85.210.73.163] has quit [Ping timeout: 482 seconds] |
| 21:03 | -!- | Biolunar [~mahdi@blfd-4db0f467.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: All your IRC are belong to us] |
| 21:19 | <Pikka> | Rubidium: any advance on bananas? |
| 21:21 | <Pinkbeast> | Is there a guide to "drawing locomotives for oafs" anywhere? |
| 21:21 | <Pikka> | one or two |
| 21:22 | <Pikka> | I have sprite templates at http://users.tt-forums.net/pikka/wiki/index.php?title=Sprite_templates , for getting the dimensions correct. I think purno used to have a general drawing guide somewhere. |
| 21:23 | <Pinkbeast> | Thanks. |
| 21:25 | <Pinkbeast> | Coo, someone's drawing the Leader? |
| 21:26 | <Pikka> | oberhümer, it would seem |
| 21:27 | <Pinkbeast> | How do you stat up a one-off experimental locomotive that never quite worked? |
| 21:28 | <Pikka> | what locomotive did you have in mind? |
| 21:28 | <Pikka> | Leader? |
| 21:29 | -!- | KouDy1 [~KouDy@115.133.7.78] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] |
| 21:29 | <Pinkbeast> | It's an example, yeah, or (say) LNER No. 10000 or _Duke of Gloucester_ |
| 21:30 | <Pikka> | well, in all those cases I'd say the stats are either known or make-up-able. |
| 21:31 | <Pikka> | never-quite-working is quite hard to represent in OTTD though |
| 21:32 | <Pikka> | all you can do is increase costs, or perhaps increase reliability decay (although since most people play with breakdowns off that won't have much of an effect) |
| 21:32 | <xiong> | Max speed 0. |
| 21:33 | <Pinkbeast> | I noticed the UKRS+ has quite a few things that weren't actually mass produced and I guess we're basically on the honour system not to build a hundred of them. :-) |
| 21:34 | <Pikka> | not necessarily, there's no reason you have to follow reality. the reasons why things weren't mass produced in real life don't necessarily affect the world of TTD. |
| 21:35 | <Pikka> | but yes, a lot of the more esoteric vehicles in UKRS+ won't make it to the main set even as extended locos, for that reason. :) |
| 21:38 | <Pinkbeast> | Thanks for the pointer to the templates, anyway - I'm off to bed. |
| 21:39 | <Pikka> | seeya |
| 21:44 | -!- | cypher [~Miranda@ip-86-49-67-207.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org] |
| 21:48 | -!- | KouDy [~KouDy@167.40.49.60.kmr01-home.tm.net.my] has joined #openttd |
| 22:10 | -!- | perk11 [~perk11@46.242.11.118] has joined #openttd |
| 22:54 | -!- | APTX_ [APTX@89-78-217-144.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #openttd |
| 22:55 | -!- | APTX [APTX@89-78-217-144.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] |
| 23:02 | <Mazur> | Oh, great work, guys, now we can't place signs while the server is paused anymore, I can't vote on PS until a second victim stumbles in. |
| 23:03 | <Mazur> | That used to be a great plus during paused state: one could at least plaec signs at problem spots or errors to come back to later. |
| 23:12 | -!- | Elukka [Elukka@78-27-90-14.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [] |
| 23:18 | -!- | Markavian [~Markavian@j616s.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] |
| 23:23 | -!- | collinp [~collin@h73.133.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has quit [Quit: Colloquy version 2.3] |
| 23:23 | -!- | LordPixaII [~pixa@85.210.70.122] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] |
| 23:29 | -!- | perk11 [~perk11@46.242.11.118] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org] |
| 23:36 | -!- | glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:8d11:84a6:49e8:4318] has quit [Quit: bye] |
| 23:39 | -!- | glevans2 [~glevans2@75-141-134-16.dhcp.mdfd.or.charter.com] has joined #openttd |
| 23:40 | -!- | glevans2 [~glevans2@75-141-134-16.dhcp.mdfd.or.charter.com] has left #openttd [] |
| --- | Log | closed Thu Mar 15 00:00:52 2012 |
![[FSF Associate Member]](/assets/fsf.png){kind=small}
