TheGrebs.com:IRC Logs:#openttd:2008:07:22

---	Log	opened Tue Jul 22 00:00:49 2008
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02:36	<Celestar>	morning
02:40	<Noldo>	morning
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03:12	<blathijs>	SmatZ: Or was it a registered channel?
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03:25	<planetmaker>	morning
03:26	<@peter1138>	lo
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03:29	<@peter1138>	Celestar, have you finished it yet? ;)
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03:51	<Mchl>	hello
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05:00	<Celestar>	peter1138: finished with what?
05:00	<Celestar>	I was sitting a stupid meeting
05:01	<Celestar>	peter1138: just poke me when you've got time
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05:27	<fmauNeko>	hello
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05:38	<GoneWacko>	A friend of mine recently mentioned something he felt was missing from OpenTTD, and I'm wondering if it's maybe already a feature or if it's in the current source tree; Basically he wonders why the Level Land tool can't make diagonal paths (i.e. through hills)
05:41	<dih>	eh... forums? :-D
05:41	<dih>	there are patches :-P
05:45	<GoneWacko>	Well I don't really follow OpenTTD development that closely :-o
05:45	<GoneWacko>	but okay
05:45	<GoneWacko>	that's what I wanted to know
05:45	<GoneWacko>	so thanks :p
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05:56	<dih>	i actually thought it was amusing to point a moderator to his own forums :-P
05:57	<GoneWacko>	Well
05:58	<GoneWacko>	The OpenTTD specific moderators do a pretty good job so I don't really need to venture there unless I'm looking for something specific
05:58	<GoneWacko>	if I ever decide to pick up OpenTTD developing again then I'm sure I'll be more up to speed :p
05:59	<dih>	;-)
06:00	<Celestar>	peter1138: I've got a problem :P
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06:10	<CIA-3>	OpenTTD: truebrain * r13778 /branches/noai/ (14 files in 3 dirs): [NoAI] -Add: added AIIndustryType, allowing you industry access by type (Yexo)
06:10	<CIA-3>	OpenTTD: truebrain * r13779 /branches/noai/projects/ (openttd_vs80.vcproj openttd_vs90.vcproj): [NoAI] -Fix r13778: MSVC projects
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06:16	<@peter1138>	Celestar, oh?
06:19	<Celestar>	peter1138: I'm still lacking an idea on how to deal "non-non-stop" things. but I'll just skip them for the time being
06:19	<Noldo>	Celestar: what are you doing?
06:20	<@peter1138>	Yes, skip those for the moment, I'd say.
06:20	<Celestar>	peter1138: basically, when orders are modified, a network is 'drawn', so each station knows what other stations can be reached by a very simple pathfinding process (Dijkstra or something)
06:21	<@peter1138>	That was what I had in mind. It may be possible to add the non-non-stop connections to that network. The network would then need to be saved, however.
06:21	<Celestar>	yes
06:21	<blathijs>	Celestar: What are you discussing?
06:21	<Noldo>	seems like passanger destinations
06:21	<Celestar>	we can still add them later. I think for a first shot, we need no non-non-stops nor do we need different speeds (i.e. aircraft vs trains or so)
06:21	<Celestar>	Noldo: correct
06:22	<@peter1138>	Yes, costs can be added later, I think.
06:22	<blathijs>	Ah, passengers shouldn't want to go somewhere that's not reachable?
06:23	<blathijs>	And adding transfers (that's what you mean by non-stop I think?) to the equation adds complexity :-)
06:23	*	blathijs off to lunch now
06:23	<Celestar>	blathijs: Transfers are instrisic :)
06:23	<@peter1138>	blathijs: non-non-stop is the stations that a train visits that are not on its schedule.
06:23	<@peter1138>	If you built up a network map directly from orders then they do not get included.
06:23	<@peter1138>	*build
06:24	<Celestar>	peter1138: the question is how to generate passengers. One idea of mine (for passengers/mail) was: Houses generate two types of passengers: local (same town) and non-local (per city. Amount by city distance and size). The non-local passengers are then split to the different target stations per city.
06:25	<ln>	13:21 < Noldo> seems like passanger destinations <-- English only
06:25	<Celestar>	peter1138: this would result in fractional passengers, which could be rounded down ..
06:25	<@peter1138>	Hmm, if you say that larger towns receive more passengers then larger towns automatically get more local traffic than smaller towns.
06:26	<Celestar>	peter1138: well, London has more local traffic than Nottingham, right? :)
06:26	<@peter1138>	Exactly.
06:27	<Celestar>	that was the idea behind it
06:27	<@peter1138>	I don't actually know, but with that rule you get more people going to big towns than to small towns.
06:27	<@peter1138>	Which makes sense to me.
06:27	<Celestar>	so each station has p passengers to station s, q passengers to station r, and so on
06:27	<Noldo>	also more people going out of large towns
06:27	<Celestar>	and towns who are better connected also produce more passengers
06:28	<Celestar>	s/who/whick
06:28	<@peter1138>	Noldo: that's already handled by passenger generation.
06:28	<Celestar>	s/whick/which
06:29	<Noldo>	hmm
06:30	<Noldo>	the situtation is not symmetrical if the destination is by town/city and generation is by house
06:30	<@peter1138>	Does it need to be symmetrical?
06:30	<Celestar>	Noldo: Destination is by town/city which is by sum over houses. So it is symmetrical
06:31	<@peter1138>	Indeed, that too :)
06:31	<Celestar>	peter1138: the question is this: when does the 'pathfinding' start: When a cargopacket is about to be boarded or when it is generated (which would need re-assessing if the network changes)
06:31	<Noldo>	only if all houses are on some station's area
06:31	<Celestar>	Noldo: destination is by houses in town which are in some station's area :D
06:32	<Celestar>	each station would need to keep track of it's population. That's easy to do.
06:32	<@peter1138>	Well if there's no station in a town then don't generate passengers for there.
06:33	<Celestar>	peter1138: I think by boarding would be better. Then we can merge identical packets before boarding, reducing the total number.
06:33	<Noldo>	so destination is actually by station?
06:33	<Celestar>	peter1138: well yes
06:33	<Celestar>	Noldo: destination is actually by station. But 'station' depends on population in station's catchment area
06:34	<Noldo>	ok, now it's starting to work :)
06:34	<Noldo>	only if there was a coding machine that could code as we speak
06:36	<Celestar>	peter1138: the question is what to do with the fractional passengers we (might) generate.
06:37	<Celestar>	(desyncs)
06:37	<Celestar>	we could use fixed-point arithmetic however.
06:37	<Noldo>	are they always something like x/8
06:38	<Celestar>	Noldo: that's the acceptance
06:38	<Noldo>	ok
06:39	<Celestar>	Noldo: I'm talking about this: Say a house generates 23 passengers: how to devided them about the destinations? We could just devide the proportinally (which will result in fractions), by random number, or weighted round-robin.
06:39	<Noldo>	weighted rr
06:40	<blathijs>	peter1138: But, when a station is not on a train's schedule, it can't be guaranteed to visit it, right?
06:40	<Celestar>	blathijs: depends.
06:40	<Celestar>	blathijs: I think we can deal with that later.
06:41	<blathijs>	My hunch would be to not deal with that, just limit to order destinations
06:41	<Celestar>	blathijs: yea
06:42	<Noldo>	could there be somekind of auto add to schedule
06:42	<Noldo>	there might be some city local tram routes that are easy to set-up with just two orders
06:43	<Celestar>	Noldo: the auto-add is no problem. The problem is auto-remove
06:44	<@peter1138>	nod
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06:45	<Celestar>	peter1138: ok. how do we try this: make a branch, or play in trunk? :P
06:50	<@peter1138>	Hmm, don't know.
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06:58	<Celestar>	peter1138: hm .. the route mapping doesn't influence anything else of the code ...
06:58	<Celestar>	hm .. btw we have a working fixed-point data type
06:58	<Celestar>	I just remembered :D
06:59	<@peter1138>	:)
06:59	<Celestar>	it's in the balance branch
07:01	<@peter1138>	I tried to figure out how to represent the network map, but I failed :(
07:02	<Celestar>	peter1138: isn't there something usable in the stl?
07:04	<Celestar>	hm.. not really
07:05	<Celestar>	we need some multi-associative thingy
07:05	<Noldo>	it's a graph isn't it?
07:05	<Celestar>	Noldo: yes, it is
07:06	<Celestar>	we could use the BGL
07:06	<Noldo>	you don't suffer from boost allergy then?
07:06	<@peter1138>	What's BGL?
07:07	<Celestar>	Boost Graph Library
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07:08	<Celestar>	I'm just reading through the documentation
07:08	<rortom>	hi all :)
07:08	<rortom>	what has boost not? :p
07:08	<planetmaker>	Celestar: got a link for me?
07:09	<@peter1138>	http://www.boost.org/doc/libs/1_35_0/libs/graph/doc/table_of_contents.html
07:09	<planetmaker>	ty, peter1138
07:09	<rortom>	is it for a tool or realtime?
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07:09	<@peter1138>	Realtime.
07:10	<@peter1138>	Ish.
07:10	<rortom>	wow, nice :)
07:10	<Celestar>	peter1138: we could aslo write our on graphs
07:10	<rortom>	i would like to see that working :D
07:10	<Celestar>	but the BGL is pretty powerful
07:10	<Celestar>	and it contains all the pathfinders
07:11	<planetmaker>	Quick question: is there a heightmap of the map available or would I need to generate that, should I need one?
07:11	<rortom>	planetmaker: waht are you doing, if i may ask?
07:11	<rortom>	*what
07:11	<planetmaker>	I try to place rivers
07:12	<@peter1138>	Well the height is stored in the map array...
07:12	<Celestar>	map_type_and_height
07:12	<@peter1138>	TileHeight(tile) kind of thing, actually.
07:12	<@peter1138>	So you could just use the usual accessors for it.
07:12	<planetmaker>	peter1138: yeah, for each tile. Actually what I need is a 2D array of height which I could use gradient filtering and smoothing on :)
07:13	*	Celestar wonders where to find the BGL's license
07:13	<planetmaker>	kinda global operations in order to get a good path.
07:13	<Celestar>	hm :S
07:13	<rortom>	Celestar: i bet its the boost license?
07:13	<Celestar>	BGL has an own license
07:13	<@peter1138>	Well you can generate that yourself.
07:13	<Celestar>	rortom: yes :)
07:14	<planetmaker>	peter1138: yeah, I suppose so :). Just checking in order to not re-invent the wheel :)
07:14	<rortom>	http://www.boost.org/LICENSE_1_0.txt
07:15	<Celestar>	so all we need to do is to include the License
07:15	<rortom>	IIRC its a bit over BSD
07:15	<Celestar>	pretty similar
07:16	<rortom>	yeah
07:16	<Celestar>	it's not a showstopper, is it?
07:16	<planetmaker>	to me it reads like "use and just tell you used it". Should be fine, eh?
07:16	<Celestar>	planetmaker: yeah
07:17	<Celestar>	how portable is the BGL?
07:18	<planetmaker>	anyway, back to work :)
07:18	<Celestar>	then again, paxdest will not work on your mobile for some years to come
07:18	*	peter1138 is able to test with MSVC2008
07:18	<rortom>	what are you going to do with BGL?
07:18	<Celestar>	rortom: talking about paxdest
07:19	<@peter1138>	Routing of cargo packets.
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07:19	*	peter1138 wonders if Yapf can do the work.
07:19	<Noldo>	well why not
07:20	<Celestar>	peter1138: well yapf can do the pathfinding, but it needs a graph ..
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07:20	<@peter1138>	Yeah, the representation is the issue.
07:20	<rortom>	paxdest = passenger destinations?
07:21	<@peter1138>	Yes.
07:21	<rortom>	nice stuff :)
07:21	<rortom>	whats about the patch that is existing?
07:21	<Noldo>	it has mp issues
07:22	<Celestar>	rortom: apart from the fact that you need a supercomputer to run it on a large map and that it doesn't work in MP?
07:22	<rortom>	ouch
07:22	<rortom>	thats a killer argument
07:22	<rortom>	also, is openttd now mixed c / c++?
07:23	<rortom>	as i saw the new windowing system
07:23	<@peter1138>	Mixed, but it's all compiled as C++
07:23	<rortom>	good to hear :D
07:24	<ln>	some of it is Objective-C++
07:24	<@peter1138>	Yes, but nobody maintains that ;p
07:25	<@peter1138>	@seen bjarni
07:25	<@DorpsGek>	peter1138: bjarni was last seen in #openttd 2 weeks, 5 days, 15 hours, 17 minutes, and 21 seconds ago: <Bjarni> I didn't have any
07:25	<ln>	famous last words
07:26	<Celestar>	peter1138: I could give the BGL a shot if you wish :)
07:27	<Celestar>	hm .. we could use things like the MST to suggest network optimizations :P
07:27	<rortom>	mhm what about the copy+paste tool patch?
07:28	<rortom>	whats the reason its on hold?
07:28	<Celestar>	wasn't that desyncing as well?
07:28	<rortom>	:\
07:29	<rortom>	so why does that happen if the code is for all the same?
07:29	<rortom>	also, why has ottd no resync phase? :)
07:29	<rortom>	(RoR has neither...)
07:29	<Celestar>	rortom: because we don'T have a client-server server
07:30	<Celestar>	rortom: we have a system where the engines of all peers must be perfectly synchroized at any time
07:30	<Celestar>	which includes the pnrgs
07:31	<rortom>	mhm, yes
07:31	<rortom>	i understand
07:33	<rortom>	so there is no way to identify the reason why something descyncs i guess?
07:34	<@peter1138>	There is; lots of testing.
07:34	<rortom>	sure, but not direct indicators
07:34	<@peter1138>	Correct.
07:35	<@peter1138>	A desync is a bug, therefore any desync should ultimately be fixed.
07:35	<rortom>	also why are you all allergic against code documentation? :p
07:35	<@peter1138>	It documents itself ;)
07:35	<Noldo>	classic
07:36	<rortom>	;)
07:37	<rortom>	i tried to understand how map loading works ... :/
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07:42	<fjb>	Hello
07:45	<@peter1138>	rortom, it's a basic RIFF structure ;)
07:45	<@peter1138>	There's a marker at the beginning for compression.
07:45	<rortom>	haha
07:45	<rortom>	yes, saw that
07:45	<rortom>	just need to uncompress and then read the chunks i guess
07:46	<@peter1138>	Yes, just that :D
07:46	<@peter1138>	The chunks are described in their related code files.
07:47	<@peter1138>	In __chunk_handlers and __desc
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07:48	<ror_tom>	13:47:33\| <@peter1138> In __chunk_handlers and __desc
07:48	<ror_tom>	13:47:34\| * Disconnected
07:48	<ror_tom>	did i miss something?
07:48	<@peter1138>	Nope.
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07:49	<ror_tom>	ok, thanks ;)
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07:49	<@peter1138>	Anyway, the saveload code is very old, written before documentation existed.
07:50	<@peter1138>	In about 4500BC.
07:52	<ror_tom>	:p
07:53	<@peter1138>	Gah, bloody interest rates.
07:53	<bowman>	hehe that got me reading about riff/aiff/iff
07:54	<bowman>	had no idea that iff was a joint electronic arts/commodore creation
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08:18	<N1ghtCrawler>	Hello, how do i "sell" the goods that the factorys produce?
08:19	<+glx>	send them to a town that accept them
08:19	<planetmaker>	N1ghtCrawler: transport them to a station which accepts them. Towns do.
08:20	<Celestar>	peter1138: well?
08:21	<N1ghtCrawler>	ahh, it was just the towns near that did not accept them
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08:25	<N1ghtCrawler>	Damn good game, railtroads are tricky tho.
08:25	<Celestar>	N1ghtCrawler: in what way
08:27	<@peter1138>	Well what?
08:27	*	peter1138 has been out, heh.
08:28	<Celestar>	peter1138: shall I give BGL a try?
08:28	<N1ghtCrawler>	Celestar: To co-ordinate everything, so they dont stuck
08:28	<Gekz>	stuck?
08:28	<Gekz>	lol
08:28	<@peter1138>	Sure.
08:29	<Gekz>	as a verb.
08:32	<dih>	hello rortom
08:42	<Celestar>	N1ghtCrawler: well. use YAPP :D
08:42	<CIA-3>	OpenTTD: glx * r13780 /branches/noai/src/ai/api/ai_road.cpp: [NoAI] -Fix: AIRoad.AreRoadTilesConnected() returned true even if road vehicle could not go from tile_from to tile_to due to one-way road.
08:43	<Ammler>	@seen SpComb
08:43	<@DorpsGek>	Ammler: SpComb was last seen in #openttd 15 hours and 58 seconds ago: <SpComb> ls -lahna
08:43	*	SpComb yawns
08:43	<Ammler>	hmm
08:43	<Ammler>	?
08:43	<dih>	lol
08:43	<Ammler>	:-)
08:43	<SpComb>	de-lurk'd
08:43	<Celestar>	the boost documentation sucks a bit
08:43	<Ammler>	SpComb: I am PMing with Oskar (alias eis_os)
08:43	<SpComb>	<insert five pages of compiler error message templates>
08:44	<SpComb>	Ammler: tt-forums PMs?
08:44	<Ammler>	yes, do you understand german?
08:44	<SpComb>	I do
08:49	<Celestar>	peter1138: when we store the graph in memory, do we optimize for speed or for space?
08:50	<Celestar>	peter1138: or some compromise?
08:52	<rortom>	hi dih
08:52	<dih>	you got any stats yet?
08:53	<Celestar>	dih: ?
08:53	<dih>	rortom is building stats
08:53	<dih>	or at least capable of
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08:55	<rortom>	sure i have
08:55	<rortom>	http://openttdserver.de/server_stats/
08:55	<rortom>	updated daily :)
08:56	<rortom>	just not sum'ed up or recorded :\
08:56	<dih>	is that an average?
08:56	<rortom>	no
08:56	<dih>	:-(
08:56	<rortom>	still have to code recording
08:56	<dih>	could you write those details to a sql db?
08:56	<rortom>	was busy with the underlying python lib
08:56	<rortom>	sure
08:56	<rortom>	thats waht i woul do :)
08:56	<rortom>	*what i would
08:56	<dih>	and then for each run just add stats and fetch the average values
08:56	<rortom>	yep :)
08:57	<@peter1138>	Celestar: Does it matter yet?
08:57	<@peter1138>	Hmm, what was the replacement for BindCString?
08:58	<Celestar>	peter1138: well, not today ...
09:01	<dih>	rortom, you have percentage of servers next to number of servers, but not for clients
09:01	<dih>	that would still be a nice addon :-D
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09:03	<@peter1138>	Yay, it built :D
09:03	<+glx>	peter1138: STR_RAW_STRING and SetDParamSomething (where you path the pointer)
09:04	<+glx>	s/path/pass
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09:05	<@peter1138>	Thanks. It just forced me to do the drop down list entry properly. :)
09:06	<+glx>	STR_JUST_RAW_STRING and SetDParamStr()
09:06	<Celestar>	hm ...
09:06	<Celestar>	this kinda sucks
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09:14	<@peter1138>	What, BGL?
09:15	<@peter1138>	Hmm, I need a better way of passing this list around :o
09:16	<Celestar>	peter1138: what list?
09:17	<ln>	send it by snail mail
09:20	<@peter1138>	A list of strings for GRF Presets.
09:20	<SpComb>	Ammler: so what's with eis_os and german?
09:21	<Ammler>	I asked him about using the Crawler for the GRF infos
09:22	<Ammler>	as it is useless now, because about 40% isn't listed.
09:23	<@peter1138>	And you know whose fault that is...
09:24	<SpComb>	there's two reasons for that
09:30	-!-	Singaporekid [~notme@cm233.epsilon120.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
09:32	<Celestar>	meh how do I include std::list?
09:33	<@peter1138>	#include <list>
09:34	<rortom>	i built a grf crawler with those stats
09:34	<rortom>	it should work well ...
09:34	<rortom>	must leave bbl :)
09:35	-!-	rortom [~rortom@p57B7D54C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit []
09:35	<Ammler>	[15:23][15:23] <peter1138> And you know whose fault that is... <-- it should become wikistyle, imo
09:35	<Ammler>	some authors are just too lazy or don't care at all.
09:36	<@peter1138>	Well...
09:37	<@peter1138>	I have often thought of adding missing entries, but didn't because they're not mine.
09:37	<Ammler>	yeah, and the entry belongs to you, so the owner can't alter if he likes after.
09:37	<@peter1138>	Right, that built :D
09:37	<@peter1138>	Indeed.
09:38	<@peter1138>	Haha, and that crashed :o
09:38	<Ammler>	I like the way CIA does it
09:38	<Ammler>	it is wiki style, but you can gain exclusive rights for your entries.
09:40	<@peter1138>	By "wiki style" do you actually mean "can be editted by anonymous people" ?
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09:46	<SpComb>	peter1138: you could use the tt-forums users database, just like GRFCrawler does
09:46	<@peter1138>	For what?
09:46	<Ammler>	peter1138: well, possible but not needed, we do only allow registered users to edit, but more important is the versioning.
09:47	<SpComb>	the second reason most GRFs are missing is because there's not a very large incentive for GRF authors to put their graphics there, not very many people will complain if they don't
09:47	<@peter1138>	Problem is GRF Crawler has not been used as a database of GRFs.
09:47	<Ammler>	we = openttdcoop wiki
09:47	<@peter1138>	There are no separate entries for DOS vs Windows versions, for example.
09:48	<Ammler>	there is for filename, not for download
09:48	*	SpComb shall continue work on his GRF-downloader tonight
09:48	<SpComb>	( http://qmsk.srv.myottd.net/~terom/stuff/openttd-newgrf-download.png )
09:49	<Ammler>	SpComb: they should be saved in a format not useable for single palyer :-)
09:51	-!-	Yorick [~Y0R1CK@s55924da0.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has joined #openttd
09:51	<Yorick>	are revisions 13775 and 13776 ported 0.6?
09:51	<Ammler>	peter1138: if grfcrawler doesn't do it, we (openttdcoop) will create such repo, maybe...
09:52	<Ammler>	or would openttd.org do it officially?
09:54	<@peter1138>	Well we've always said we won't do automatic downloading, so that's probably unlikely.
09:54	<SpComb>	I wouldn't set that decision in stone yet, too many unresolved questions
09:55	<SpComb>	nobody's proved that it's impossible
09:55	<Yorick>	I don't think it's very hard to do either
09:56	<SpComb>	well, it is, it's a complicated matter, and implementing it in a satisfactory way so that it becomes succesfull isn't trivial
09:57	<Yorick>	we already have a list of newgrfs by server
09:57	<Yorick>	just a search facility by md5sum
09:57	<planetmaker>	[15:55][15:55] <Yorick> I don't think it's very hard to do either <- the most difficult part is to actually do it.
09:57	<SpComb>	it's a complicated question, and any implementation is going to be pretty useless unless it's integrated into OpenTTD trunk
09:57	<planetmaker>	Principally I could build a settlement on Mars...
09:57	<SpComb>	Yorick: yes, that part is easy, and I've already done it, look at my screenshot
09:57	<SpComb>	it doesn't actually download the .grfs yet, but it does get a list of URLs to them
09:58	<@peter1138>	SpComb, the reason for not doing it was not technical.
09:58	<SpComb>	I'm aware of that
09:58	<@peter1138>	Okay, Yorick, the reason for not doing it was not technical.
09:58	<Ammler>	peter1138: not the download repo
09:58	<Ammler>	more the "grf" list
09:58	<Yorick>	peter1138: no, it was at the licensing side
09:59	<Yorick>	what if only authors that do not mind upload the grfs to the repo?
09:59	<SpComb>	the licensing side and the opinions of the NewGRF authors
09:59	<@peter1138>	Ammler: it's fairly easy to just store every GRF ever, by GRF ID and md5sum...
09:59	<Celestar>	planetmaker: if you do, please poke me, I'll help
09:59	<planetmaker>	hehe :)
10:00	<planetmaker>	With a one-way or with a return ticket, Celestar? ;)
10:00	<Celestar>	planetmaker: honestly? not sure yet :P
10:00	<Celestar>	depends on whether $GF plans to join or not, I guess
10:00	<planetmaker>	:) hehe
10:00	<Ammler>	peter1138: indeed, I thought about that.. (renaming all GRFs in the pack)
10:00	<Ammler>	but I fear, some authors wouldn't like that)
10:01	<Celestar>	do we have plans to put yapp in trunk at some point?
10:01	<Yorick>	yes
10:02	<planetmaker>	Celestar: I hope :P
10:02	<Ammler>	Yorick: I guess, he means we=devs
10:02	<planetmaker>	I hope it was bad timing and he agreed with you, Ammler :)
10:02	<Yorick>	Ammler: peter1138 claimed to fix & commit it after test round by (I forgot)
10:03	<Yorick>	and I agree with Ammler
10:03	<planetmaker>	Brian
10:03	<Ammler>	btw, you might edit the roadmap, is looks almost empty
10:03	<Yorick>	it ís almost empty
10:03	<@peter1138>	That was kind of a joke...
10:03	<planetmaker>	:P
10:04	*	planetmaker thinks peter1138 is a funny guy :)
10:04	<Ammler>	also the dynmaic engine pool could added, so you have something almost done...
10:05	<Celestar>	WEEEHAAA
10:05	<Celestar>	> bin/openttd -snull -d routenetwork=2
10:05	<Celestar>	dbg: [routenetwork] Vertex added to route network
10:05	<planetmaker>	?
10:05	<Yorick>	paxdest
10:06	<Ammler>	mäh
10:06	<Ammler>	you mean cargo dest :-)
10:06	<Ammler>	but that one is too risky
10:07	<Yorick>	hmm...I forgot what I was doing
10:07	<Celestar>	Ammler: what is too risky?
10:07	*	Yorick codes a company list in python
10:08	<Ammler>	adding destination to the roadmap :-)
10:08	<Celestar>	peter1138: I'm currently assuming that a vehicle 1) can reach all stations on its schedule and 2) does reach all stations on its schedule (i.e. no skipping by conditionals for now)
10:09	<@peter1138>	nod
10:11	<@peter1138>	Ammler, actually we don't really care about road maps :P
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10:16	<Ammler>	well, but it would look nice for "outsiders"
10:17	-!-	mucht_work [~Martin@143.50.125.24] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!]
10:17	<Ammler>	not everyone is here all the time...
10:17	<CIA-3>	OpenTTD: peter1138 * r13781 /trunk/src/ (5 files in 3 dirs): -Feature: NewGRF presets, selected by a drop down list in the NewGRF window. Presets are saved in the config file.
10:17	<planetmaker>	[16:16][16:16] <Ammler> well, but it would look nice for "outsiders" <-- I agree
10:19	<planetmaker>	It gives the first-hand impression of a busy community - wether you care about the roadmap or stick to it doesn't matter too much as long as there's at least some correlation
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10:19	<Ammler>	Celestar: are you still working on balancing?
10:20	<Ammler>	isn't that a GRF issue?
10:23	<Ammler>	you had a really nice (and working) roadmap for 0.6
10:23	<rortom>	mh what about the grf crawler?
10:24	<rortom>	i can built one with the stats im gathering
10:24	<Ammler>	?
10:24	<Ammler>	we spoke about the database
10:24	<Ammler>	http://grfcrawler.tt-forums.net
10:25	<rortom>	i heard it was not working or so?
10:25	<Ammler>	well, not ALL GRFs are listed
10:26	<Ammler>	you can't do that automatically...
10:26	<rortom>	mhm we can enhance the crawler with my stats info
10:26	<rortom>	like most used, etc
10:26	<Ammler>	yeah, that would be nice
10:26	<SpComb>	rortom: do you have more info about your stats somewhere?
10:26	<SpComb>	I gather you wrote a python script to connect to OpenTTD servers and do... stuff?
10:26	<Ammler>	SpComb: ottdserver.de
10:26	<Yorick>	SpComb: #openttd-python
10:27	<SpComb>	"Firefox can't find the server at www.ottdserver.de."
10:27	<rortom>	http://openttdserver.de/forum/
10:27	<rortom>	-ottd + openttd ;)
10:27	<Celestar>	Ammler: on hold
10:27	<Ammler>	http://www.openttdserver.de/server_stats/
10:27	<rortom>	yup
10:27	<rortom>	bbl
10:27	<Yorick>	he wrote a script that can connect to openttd servers and do... stuff
10:27	<rortom>	~20 minutes
10:27	<Ammler>	sorry
10:28	<XeryusTC>	!playercount
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10:29	<XeryusTC>	heh lol :
10:31	<SpComb>	OpenTTD archiecture bonus question, worth 5 points... is it possible to do async network stuff in the background while the GUI's running and responding?
10:31	<Ammler>	there should be "one" repo for all GRFs, which can make stats about amount of downloads and used (at least on servers)
10:32	<Yorick>	SpComb: depends on what you call 'responding'
10:32	<Rubidium>	SpComb: the download map does that, doesn't it?
10:32	<Ammler>	I guess, that is why some prefer downloading from tt-forums, to have the stats for downloads.
10:35	<Ammler>	we now work really much on just keeping our GRF Table up2date, I would like to share that work... and replace the wiki page with a proper database
10:39	<Celestar>	when I have "using namespace" at some point, can I terminate that, or does that run to end-of-file?
10:44	<Celestar>	wow that was a killer :P
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10:47	<rortom>	Celestar: AFAIK until EOF
10:47	<blathijs>	Celestar: perhaps you can put { using namespace foo; .... } or something
10:47	<hylje>	THE BRACES
10:47	<blathijs>	not sure if you can randomly begin a new scope at global scope, though
10:47	<Celestar>	blathijs: yeah, or just type std:: the three times :P
10:47	<blathijs>	Celestar: Which you should be doing in the first place :-p
10:48	<Celestar>	:P
10:48	<@peter1138>	using namespace considered harmful
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10:49	<rortom>	just dont use it ;)
10:49	<@peter1138>	Quite.
10:49	<Celestar>	peter1138: just for info. the route map will need to be saved.
10:50	<@peter1138>	Yeah
10:50	<@peter1138>	£699.00
10:50	<@peter1138>	Normal price £699.95
10:50	<@peter1138>	Impressive reduction...
10:51	<Celestar>	lol
10:51	-!-	nekx [~asd@0x3e42e6e6.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #openttd
10:51	<@peter1138>	Who makes the best LCD TVs at the moment...
10:53	-!-	fmauNeko is now known as fmauNekAway
10:53	<ben_goodger>	peter1138: if the quality of their LCD monitors are anything to judge by, you won't go far wrong with samsung...
10:55	<Celestar>	peter1138: doing progress
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10:56	<rortom>	also: back
10:57	<rortom>	is the grfcrawler source code lying anywhere?
10:57	-!-	Purno [~Purno@5350931D.cable.casema.nl] has joined #openttd
10:57	<rortom>	also, it is just a user maintained database?
10:57	<Yorick>	try #tycoon
10:57	<@orudge>	rortom: grfcrawler is written by Oskar
10:57	<@orudge>	it's not open source as such
10:57	<@orudge>	users can submit GRF files to it
10:57	<@orudge>	it's linked in with the forum user database
10:57	<rortom>	:/
10:58	<@orudge>	?
10:58	<rortom>	http://www.openttdserver.de/server_stats/
10:58	<rortom>	i have that ^
10:58	<rortom>	and would want to integrate :)
10:58	<rortom>	also thanks for your effort with openttd :)
10:59	<@orudge>	Integrate it with what?
10:59	<Celestar>	I don't understand std::map
10:59	<@orudge>	there's an XML API for grfcrawler
10:59	<@orudge>	if that's what you want
10:59	<Celestar>	StationVertexMap.insert(std::pair<StationID, Vertex>(StationID(new_order.GetDestination()), Vertex()) );
10:59	<Celestar>	why does this fail :S
10:59	*	orudge uses it in the new Repository
10:59	<hylje>	Celestar: too much C++
10:59	<hylje>	:-)
10:59	<Ammler>	[16:59][16:59] * orudge uses it in the new Repository ?
11:00	<Ammler>	linky?
11:00	<@orudge>	well, the new Repository is still under development
11:00	<hylje>	teh Repository?!
11:00	<@orudge>	http://grfcrawler.tt-forums.net/xml.php?api=search&q=GRFIDGOESHERE&type=grfidlist
11:00	<rortom>	what is the new repository?
11:00	<@orudge>	returns details on the GRF files with the XMLIDs (separated by spaces) there
11:01	<@orudge>	It's the new version of the Ultimate Transport Tycoon Game Repository
11:01	<rortom>	mhm
11:01	<@orudge>	currently at http://misc.owenrudge.net/ttgame/ and sorely out of date
11:01	<Prof_Frink>	s/Rep/Supp/
11:01	<rortom>	ah :)
11:01	<@orudge>	the new version can parse TTD and OpenTTD games to produce maps, get all sorts of details and statistics, and more
11:01	<@orudge>	it's also tidier, more organised
11:01	<@orudge>	and generally better
11:01	<Ammler>	orudge: but also not the idea to have all GRF listed?
11:01	<@orudge>	it's just not quite finished yet
11:01	<rortom>	mhm
11:02	<Celestar>	hylje: I'm trying to do this properly
11:02	<rortom>	what if i create an automated service that collects all grf infos? :\|
11:02	<hylje>	people will hate you for stealing their property
11:02	<CIA-3>	OpenTTD: glx * r13782 /trunk/src/train.h: -Cleanup: removed a useless declaration
11:02	<@orudge>	[16:01:42][16:01:42] <Ammler> orudge: but also not the idea to have all GRF listed? <-- what do you mean?
11:02	<@orudge>	the UTTGR will check for GRF files used in TTDPatch and OpenTTD games
11:02	<rortom>	@ hylje: yes, that is what i was afraid of
11:02	<@orudge>	and give a list of the ones it knows about
11:02	<rortom>	IMHO thats stupid
11:03	<@orudge>	(checking its own internal database, and the Repository)
11:03	<hylje>	it is
11:03	<Ammler>	orudge: it won't be a replacment for GRFCrawler?
11:03	<@orudge>	*GRFCrawler, not Repository
11:03	<@orudge>	no
11:03	<@orudge>	it's for saved games
11:03	<@orudge>	not GRF files
11:03	<@orudge>	saved games, scenarios, etc
11:03	<rortom>	mhm
11:03	<@orudge>	although, you can upload GRF files if you want
11:03	<@orudge>	and then link to those from GRFCrawler
11:03	<rortom>	mhm i should really code that grf repository
11:03	<@orudge>	well
11:03	<Ammler>	orudge: how will you handle GRFs which aren't listed there?
11:04	<Yorick>	get their names from the servers?
11:04	<@orudge>	Ammler: well, at the moment, it just doesn't show them. Either that or it just shows the GRFID, can't remember.
11:04	<@orudge>	Yorick: it's nothing to do with servers
11:04	<@orudge>	it operates on saved games/scenarios
11:04	<@orudge>	rortom: well, the Repository can handle GRF files, as I say
11:04	<@orudge>	although its primary purpose is saved games, etc
11:05	<rortom>	mhm
11:05	<rortom>	was auto grf download a topic ever?
11:05	<Ammler>	so you will analyze saves, which settings and GRFs are used?
11:05	<hylje>	GRFs come implicitly through saves
11:05	<@orudge>	Ammler: yes.
11:05	<@orudge>	I sent you a preview link, Ammler, privately
11:05	<Ammler>	cool!
11:05	<hylje>	rortom: yes, but people will hate you for stealing your property :-(
11:05	<Ammler>	got that
11:06	<@orudge>	look through the browse feature
11:06	<@orudge>	it'll be a bit slow, as it's on my ADSL connection
11:06	<hylje>	some people get strange satisfaction through making people run through hoops
11:06	<@orudge>	the Repository goes into perhaps too much detail... every industry and town in every saved game is recorded ;)
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11:07	<Celestar>	GAAAAHHH
11:07	*	Celestar is the biggest idiot of the century
11:08	<Mchl>	which century?
11:08	<Celestar>	any
11:08	<hylje>	all
11:08	<Celestar>	type a; b = something; if (a = something_else) ....
11:08	<Mchl>	nasty
11:08	<Mchl>	takes centuries to fin
11:08	<Mchl>	fin
11:08	<Mchl>	find
11:09	<Mchl>	i'm loosing d
11:11	<hylje>	that's why assignment-expressions are awesome
11:11	<hylje>	think of the possibilities!
11:13	<Celestar>	dbg: [routenetwork] Attempting to add vertex to route network
11:13	<Celestar>	dbg: [routenetwork] Vertex added to route network for station 0
11:13	<Celestar>	dbg: [routenetwork] Attempting to add vertex to route network
11:13	<Celestar>	dbg: [routenetwork] Vertex added to route network for station 1
11:13	<Celestar>	dbg: [routenetwork] Attempting to add vertex to route network
11:13	<Celestar>	dbg: [routenetwork] Reusing vertex 0 for station 0. No vertex added
11:13	<Celestar>	WEE!!
11:13	<Celestar>	I'm going home. cu tomorrow :D
11:13	<@peter1138>	What!
11:13	<@peter1138>	Don't go :o
11:14	*	peter1138 needs destinations :o
11:14	<rortom>	lol :p
11:14	<Celestar>	peter1138: it won't be finished today.
11:14	<Celestar>	will resume tomorrow morningish
11:14	<@peter1138>	:)
11:18	-!-	frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590fdbd5.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #openttd
11:19	<Eddi\|zuHause3>	<Celestar> peter1138: when we store the graph in memory, do we optimize for s