| --- | Log | opened Sun Mar 23 00:00:13 2008 |
| --- | Day | changed Sun Mar 23 2008 |
| 00:00 | -!- | Osai^zZz`off is now known as Osai |
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| 01:38 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | haha, it's completely white outside ;) |
| 01:40 | -!- | Osai is now known as Osai`off |
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| 02:56 | <CIA-1> | OpenTTD: rubidium * r12397 /trunk/src/timetable_gui.cpp: -Codechange [FS#1856]: enumify widget number for time tables. Patch by Phil Sophus. |
| 03:34 | -!- | Wolf01 [~wolf01@host220-173-dynamic.60-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #openttd |
| 03:34 | <Wolf01> | hello |
| 03:35 | <CIA-1> | OpenTTD: rubidium * r12398 /trunk/ (8 files in 3 dirs): -Codechange [FS#1770]: Move toolbar related code to it's own little neighbourhood. Based on a patch by Dominik. |
| 03:35 | <@peter1138> | Hee |
| 03:38 | -!- | planetmaker [~chatzilla@Fcf06.f.ppp-pool.de] has joined #openttd |
| 03:40 | <Wolf01> | OMG O_O http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=36764 |
| 03:44 | <mrfrenzy> | hi wolf01 |
| 03:44 | <mrfrenzy> | If you like it I suggest you do some encouraging in the thread |
| 03:44 | -!- | TinoM [~Tino@i59F56531.versanet.de] has joined #openttd |
| 03:45 | * | Rubidium gives it a 10% chance to succeed (and that's probably even too optimistic) |
| 03:46 | <Wolf01> | that guy is a legend... if only he can finish all his good patches |
| 03:47 | -!- | Ammler [~Ammler@adsl-62-167-45-130.adslplus.ch] has joined #openttd |
| 03:52 | <@peter1138> | Hmm, proper snow :o |
| 03:52 | -!- | yorick [~yorick@s55924da0.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has joined #openttd |
| 03:52 | <yorick> | hello |
| 03:55 | <Wolf01> | hi |
| 04:16 | -!- | jez [andreis@87-194-212-214.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd |
| 04:16 | -!- | jez is now known as jez9999 |
| 04:16 | <jez9999> | @seen Bjarni |
| 04:16 | <@DorpsGek> | jez9999: Bjarni was last seen in #openttd 4 days, 11 hours, 28 minutes, and 20 seconds ago: <Bjarni> lol |
| 04:16 | <yorick> | hello |
| 04:16 | <yorick> | oh noes |
| 04:25 | <jez9999> | hmm |
| 04:25 | <jez9999> | what is the purpose of INVALID_STRING_ID? |
| 04:25 | <yorick> | being invalid |
| 04:26 | -!- | dR3x4cK [~Miranda@p5B11DF0C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd |
| 04:26 | <jez9999> | seems like it gets passed to things like ShowErrorMessage |
| 04:26 | <yorick> | all these things have an INVALID type, so they added one to STRING_ID aswell |
| 04:27 | <jez9999> | i cant seem to find a string in english.txt that matches up with it |
| 04:27 | <jez9999> | so im wondering what it prints out |
| 04:27 | <yorick> | nothing |
| 04:30 | <yorick> | or maybe it asserts |
| 04:33 | <jez9999> | hmm |
| 04:33 | <jez9999> | does seem to just cause a blank error |
| 04:33 | <jez9999> | curious |
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| 06:29 | <yorick> | !seen LordAzamath |
| 06:29 | <yorick> | @seen LordAzamath |
| 06:29 | <@DorpsGek> | yorick: LordAzamath was last seen in #openttd 5 days, 22 hours, 6 minutes, and 17 seconds ago: <LordAzamath> (::)::(::) |
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| 06:38 | <jez9999> | hi |
| 06:38 | <jez9999> | i need to create a dynamic array for an OpenTTD patch i'm developing |
| 06:38 | <jez9999> | i'm going do be, during a loop, adding certain entries to it |
| 06:38 | <jez9999> | i'm not going to be able to know how many entries there will be, so i need to be able to keep adding to it dynamically |
| 06:39 | <yorick> | oh |
| 06:39 | <jez9999> | what's the standard way of doing this in Openttd? |
| 06:39 | <jez9999> | do we have some dynamic array class we use in C++? is there some example dynamic array code you can point me to? |
| 06:39 | <yorick> | using a c++ way |
| 06:39 | <Maedhros> | std::list, probably |
| 06:39 | <jez9999> | is that typically used in the openttd codebase? |
| 06:39 | <jez9999> | im wanting to stick to the openttd coding style |
| 06:40 | <Tefad> | http://adrinael.net/containerchoice.png |
| 06:40 | <Maedhros> | it's used in a few places, yes |
| 06:40 | <Maedhros> | but then so is malloc / realloc |
| 06:41 | <jez9999> | Tefad: hmm interesting |
| 06:42 | <jez9999> | i come out with vector or deque, for that |
| 06:42 | <jez9999> | i guess it might be easier to get help on list, tho |
| 06:42 | <jez9999> | more people are likely to use it |
| 06:43 | <Tefad> | list is a doubly linked array |
| 06:43 | <Tefad> | it's good for when you're processing arbitrary amounts of data |
| 06:44 | <Tefad> | say.. you query a database and you could have 5 results come back.. or 5000... |
| 06:44 | <Tefad> | list is good for that |
| 06:44 | <jez9999> | or... someone drags over a matrix of 4 squares... or 400 |
| 06:44 | <Tefad> | perhaps.. |
| 06:45 | <Tefad> | if you know the size of the area before you populate memory, you should use something like deque or vector |
| 06:45 | <Rubidium> | use a pool |
| 06:45 | <jez9999> | not really, because im not storing info on every square |
| 06:45 | <jez9999> | only squares that fulfil a certain criterion |
| 06:46 | <jez9999> | im building that store up as i go along |
| 06:46 | <Rubidium> | then you want a map of some sort and not a list/array/vector |
| 06:47 | <jez9999> | that assumes i need to find an element by key |
| 06:47 | <jez9999> | do i? |
| 06:47 | <Rubidium> | well, if you can't use a pool then yes |
| 06:47 | <jez9999> | why cant i use a pool? |
| 06:48 | <Tefad> | key or index? |
| 06:48 | <Rubidium> | you said "not really" after I said to use a pool |
| 06:48 | <jez9999> | i was responding to Tefad |
| 06:48 | <jez9999> | <Tefad> if you know the size of the area before you populate memory,... |
| 06:48 | <Tefad> | if you're building something by hand and you don't know how many you're going to end up with, use list as intermediate |
| 06:48 | <Tefad> | then you can pass it as whatever you want |
| 06:48 | <jez9999> | i must confess ive never heard of a deque |
| 06:48 | <jez9999> | what is that? |
| 06:49 | <Tefad> | double ended queue |
| 06:51 | <jez9999> | might that be better than a list for this purpose |
| 06:51 | <jez9999> | i think in C#, the List<> basically is a deque |
| 06:51 | <jez9999> | in fact im not sure what the difference between a list and queue is; i always thought List preserved order too |
| 06:51 | <Tefad> | lists have great use of pointers |
| 06:52 | <Tefad> | deque/vector usually allocated contiguous memory |
| 06:52 | <jez9999> | ok i'll go for a std::list then |
| 06:52 | <jez9999> | next thing: in C#, i happily dont worry about this |
| 06:52 | <Tefad> | lists have more memory overhead |
| 06:52 | <jez9999> | in c++; do i need to worry about memory management when using std::list? |
| 06:52 | <Tefad> | vectors/deques suck when you keep growing your memory size. |
| 06:52 | <jez9999> | what's the process of using it |
| 06:52 | <jez9999> | yeah i'll use a list |
| 06:52 | <Tefad> | (lists allocate each element separately) |
| 06:53 | <jez9999> | what's the c++ overall process |
| 06:53 | <Tefad> | jez9999: you can use a list just like you would use a vector, it's transparent |
| 06:53 | <jez9999> | in C# it's basically new List<>... add stuff... then forget |
| 06:53 | <Tefad> | it's a basic container |
| 06:53 | <jez9999> | in c++ is there a destructor or something you must call? |
| 06:54 | <Tefad> | not unless you're doing fancy stuff |
| 06:54 | <jez9999> | fancy stuff? |
| 06:54 | <jez9999> | i always thought in C++ you had to manually dispose of objects to avoid mem leaks |
| 06:56 | -!- | Wolf01 is now known as Wolf01|AWAY |
| 06:58 | <jez9999> | anyone? |
| 07:00 | <Maedhros> | if you allocate them with new, then you have to delete them |
| 07:01 | <Maedhros> | in the case of things like containers, the memory they allocate will be freed when the container goes out of scope and the destructor is called |
| 07:01 | -!- | Keir [~blah@thespinneys.plus.com] has joined #openttd |
| 07:04 | <Keir> | hey |
| 07:04 | <Keir> | does anyone know where I can rent an openttd server from? |
| 07:06 | <jez9999> | i'll rent you one |
| 07:06 | <jez9999> | $100/mo |
| 07:06 | <Keir> | ooo |
| 07:06 | <Keir> | ah |
| 07:06 | <jez9999> | :-) |
| 07:06 | <Keir> | i'm sure i can find one cheaper :P |
| 07:06 | <jez9999> | $50/mo |
| 07:06 | <Keir> | $25 and u got a deal :P |
| 07:07 | <jez9999> | paypal's fees will be that much :-) |
| 07:07 | <jez9999> | god i hate paypal |
| 07:07 | <Keir> | lol no they wont |
| 07:07 | <jez9999> | what do you want it for anyway |
| 07:07 | <Keir> | umm |
| 07:07 | <Keir> | to host an openttd server with :) |
| 07:08 | <jez9999> | i know but do you have a bunch of people who definitely wanna play on it? |
| 07:08 | <jez9999> | or are you gonna put it online and hope for the best? :-) |
| 07:08 | <Keir> | well there's me and a mate who play regularaly and other than that, to hope for the best :) |
| 07:09 | <jez9999> | hmm |
| 07:09 | <jez9999> | i wonder whether anyone's gotten the openttd server working on CentOS... |
| 07:09 | <mrfrenzy> | why should it not |
| 07:10 | -!- | Keir [~blah@thespinneys.plus.com] has quit [] |
| 07:11 | <jez9999> | there's no downloadable RPM build of openttd |
| 07:11 | <jez9999> | :-( |
| 07:11 | <jez9999> | just a horrid .deb |
| 07:11 | -!- | Keir [~blah@thespinneys.plus.com] has joined #openttd |
| 07:11 | <Keir> | i hate irc |
| 07:11 | <Keir> | so can u rent one? |
| 07:11 | <jez9999> | im just investigating, Keir |
| 07:11 | <Keir> | ah ok thnx |
| 07:11 | <jez9999> | i'll need to install it on CentOS |
| 07:11 | <jez9999> | wonder if anyone's done it |
| 07:12 | <jez9999> | what version of the server do you want |
| 07:12 | <Keir> | 0.6.0 beta 5 preferably |
| 07:12 | <jez9999> | hmm that'll need compiling |
| 07:12 | <jez9999> | hmmm |
| 07:12 | <mrfrenzy> | jez9999: just compile it, it's a breeze |
| 07:12 | <jez9999> | on 'doze, i had to download tons of stuff to compile it :-) |
| 07:12 | <Rubidium> | jez9999: that's because nobody ever has been bothered enough to make rpms |
| 07:12 | <jez9999> | not sure about ni |
| 07:12 | <jez9999> | nix |
| 07:13 | <mrfrenzy> | atleast on debian you would only need to install the build-essential package and you have all tools needed to build it |
| 07:15 | <Maedhros> | Keir: i'm sure you could get a good deal from orudge (zernebok.com) :) |
| 07:16 | -!- | roboman [~Leo@c211-30-60-34.carlnfd4.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #openttd |
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| 07:18 | <yorick> | keir: you know about FREE server hosting services, myottd.net? |
| 07:19 | <Keir> | nope? lol |
| 07:20 | <yorick> | now you do :-) |
| 07:20 | <Keir> | the site doesnt load lol |
| 07:20 | <Keir> | oh wait it does |
| 07:20 | <yorick> | but it's laggy |
| 07:20 | <yorick> | its the same server where the ottd runs upon |
| 07:20 | <jez9999> | does it let you run whatever build you want? |
| 07:20 | <yorick> | dunno |
| 07:22 | <Keir> | it doesnt have beta5 :( |
| 07:22 | <yorick> | hmm...jez is very cheap aswell :) |
| 07:49 | -!- | pm_away is now known as planetmaker |
| 07:51 | <jez9999> | weird |
| 07:51 | <jez9999> | my server is online |
| 07:51 | <jez9999> | i can connect to it via telnet |
| 07:51 | <jez9999> | yet openttd just says 'SEVRER OFFLINE', seems to make no attempt to connect when i add it |
| 07:52 | <yorick> | firewall? |
| 07:53 | <jez9999> | i enabled it, and can connect to other servers |
| 07:56 | <jez9999> | i dont get it |
| 07:56 | <jez9999> | it's made apparently no attempt to connect to it |
| 07:56 | <jez9999> | the server is accepting connections just fine |
| 07:56 | <jez9999> | does my server need to be in the list that openTTD gets its "Find servers" from before it will connect to a server? |
| 07:58 | <yorick> | no |
| 07:58 | <yorick> | only when server_advertise is on |
| 08:05 | <jez9999> | according to Wireshark, it's not even sending out a UDP packet! |
| 08:05 | <jez9999> | when i click on refresh server |
| 08:05 | <jez9999> | i wonder if that whole 'add server' functionality is kaput |
| 08:09 | <yorick> | maybe company_info is done using a tcp packet? |
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| 08:25 | <jez9999> | how often is the master server list refreshed |
| 08:25 | <jez9999> | for openttd? |
| 08:26 | -!- | Wolf01 [~wolf01@host61-236-dynamic.4-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #openttd |
| 08:28 | <Rubidium> | in what sense? |
| 08:29 | <Rubidium> | new servers: immediatelly, servers going away that notify the ms: immediatelly, servers going away without telling it: within 5 minutes, updating the game stats: every 5 minutes. |
| 08:29 | -!- | Osai is now known as Osai`off |
| 08:29 | <Rubidium> | client rerequesting the server list: whenever the user clicks the button (or opens the window) |
| 08:48 | * | yorick wants to see extra flags so he can go on with flags in client list |
| 08:48 | <yorick> | :) |
| 08:52 | -!- | Osai`off is now known as Osai |
| 09:00 | <yorick> | I would say that [FS# 1868] is a feature request instead of a bug |
| 09:07 | <yorick> | Jez9999: was it you that was working on the train-tracktype-upgrade? |
| 09:08 | <yorick> | I said something like it was already done, didn't I? |
| 09:08 | <yorick> | http://bugs.openttd.org/task/1859 <-- there is your proof |
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| 09:09 | -!- | mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ |
| 09:10 | -!- | TinoM [~Tino@i59F56531.versanet.de] has joined #openttd |
| 09:13 | <yorick> | the difficulty options window lacks a close button |
| 09:16 | <Volley> | i just tested "Timetable based separation patch" ( needed some manual merging with my YAPP patched version), played around, had fun, but basically i think all this seperation stuff could go way more easily... shouldn't a "wait until full loaded or other train of shared order list arrives"- option in the train orders do? |
| 09:17 | <+glx> | yorick: there's a cancel button |
| 09:17 | <yorick> | which isn't on the top left, while I like buttons to be on the top left |
| 09:17 | <yorick> | its just...consistency that's missing |
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| 09:18 | <+glx> | there was a close button, but it has been removed because it confused many players |
| 09:18 | <yorick> | every other window has a close button |
| 09:18 | -!- | Digitalfox [~Digitalfo@bl7-185-94.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #openttd |
| 09:18 | <+glx> | no you have an explicit apply or dismiss |
| 09:19 | <yorick> | then remove the cancel button and readd the close button |
| 09:20 | <yorick> | even confirmation windows have a close button ;) |
| 09:21 | -!- | Scotch [~Scotch@d83-182-168-42.cust.tele2.be] has joined #openttd |
| 09:21 | <yorick> | don't you have an explicit apply or dismiss on confirmation windows? |
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| 09:25 | <yorick> | LordAzamath! You've returned! |
| 09:25 | <LordAzamath> | almost |
| 09:25 | * | yorick goes celebrating and dancing |
| 09:25 | <LordAzamath> | ALMOST |
| 09:26 | * | yorick presses pause button for music |
| 09:26 | <yorick> | how do you mean, 'almost'? |
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| 10:38 | <Pinchiukas> | I tell a truck to go to a lorry station near a sawmill that produces goods, load up some boxes, go to a town and unload them, but it doesn't get any money for that, what gives? |
| 10:39 | <yorick> | have you set overload? |
| 10:39 | <yorick> | err...transfer* |
| 10:39 | <yorick> | darn translations |
| 10:39 | <Pinchiukas> | set what? |
| 10:40 | <yorick> | http://wiki.openttd.org/index.php/Orders |
| 10:45 | <shodan> | Pinchiukas: easiest thing is not to set 'unload' |
| 10:47 | <Pinchiukas> | ok now everything seems fine, but there is a bunch of goods standing in the station |
| 10:48 | <yorick> | which means your station didn't accept goods |
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| 11:03 | <Pinchiukas> | yorick: why? |
| 11:04 | <Maedhros> | because you don't have any houses near the station that accept goods |
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| 11:09 | <Pinchiukas> | ok, why would the local authority not allow me to build a bus station or a lorry station? |
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| 11:15 | <yorick> | hmm....we need official openttd MP servers! |
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| 11:19 | <Pinchiukas> | yep |
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| 11:29 | <lestat_spanish> | hi all |
| 11:29 | <lestat_spanish> | hola a todos |
| 11:30 | <yorick> | and now you appear here? |
| 11:30 | <yorick> | yes, people can remove parts that connect stations to make them appear joined afterwards |
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| 11:31 | <yorick> | btw, this channel is english only |
| 11:31 | <ln> | yes, and may i also say that this channel is ENGLISH ONLY |
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| 11:32 | <RichK67> | hi |
| 11:33 | <yorick> | hello RichK |
| 11:33 | <yorick> | I've looked at the bits for houses |
| 11:34 | <RichK67> | i would guess i could steal bit 15 of m2... since i cant see there being > 32768 towns |
| 11:34 | <yorick> | @calc 2048*2048/32768 |
| 11:34 | <@DorpsGek> | yorick: 128 |
| 11:34 | <yorick> | @calc 2048*2048 |
| 11:34 | <@DorpsGek> | yorick: 4194304 |
| 11:34 | <yorick> | ah yeah, it would probably fit |
| 11:35 | <yorick> | lets see, m6 bit 2 is free if newhouses is activated |
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| 11:35 | <RichK67> | but ill do whatever Rubidium suggests, since otherwise ill get complaints - heck, i get them anyway |
| 11:35 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | <yorick> @calc 2048*2048/32768 <- what exactly should this calculation yield? "average 'square tiles' per town"? |
| 11:35 | <yorick> | if not activated, m7 bits 7..4 are free |
| 11:36 | <RichK67> | cant assume its not activated |
| 11:36 | <yorick> | probably |
| 11:36 | <yorick> | m6 bit 2 is free if newhouses is activated |
| 11:36 | <yorick> | you only need one? |
| 11:37 | <RichK67> | yup, and m6 bit 2 would be very nice (its the one im using elsewhere) |
| 11:37 | <RichK67> | if newhouse.... bits 7..2 : Current animation frame (bits 5..0); bit 6 in m3 |
| 11:37 | <RichK67> | m6 bit 2 used |
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| 11:38 | <yorick> | you could use 2 different bits? |
| 11:38 | <lestat_spanish> | |
| 11:38 | <lestat_spanish> | As a question can I do to have two separate stations late the same station? |
| 11:38 | <RichK67> | yeah - id just switch which bit to look at based on tile type |
| 11:38 | <yorick> | lestat_spanish: I already answered it to you |
| 11:39 | <RichK67> | slightly ugly, but my philosophy is prove it works first, then make it pretty |
| 11:39 | <yorick> | but, can't you switch between m6 bit 2 if newhouses is activated and m7 bit 4 if not? |
| 11:40 | <RichK67> | m6 bit 2 is *used* when newhouses in use |
| 11:40 | <lestat_spanish> | |
| 11:40 | <lestat_spanish> | Forgiveness was in the bathroom and was not English |
| 11:40 | <lestat_spanish> | I am using the translator google |
| 11:40 | <yorick> | ah, ignored that lestat guy, now, m6 bit 2 is not, landscape.html says |
| 11:41 | <yorick> | m6 :* If newhouses is activated |
| 11:41 | <yorick> | o bits 7..3 : Current animation frame |
| 11:41 | <yorick> | o bit 2 : free |
| 11:41 | <RichK67> | not in the docs im looking at... (ex-trunk) |
| 11:41 | <yorick> | you might want to try trunk |
| 11:42 | <lestat_spanish> | ~yorick~ Do not be so wrong |
| 11:42 | <RichK67> | just synced to trunk... here is the quote: |
| 11:42 | <RichK67> | m6 : |
| 11:42 | <RichK67> | |
| 11:42 | <RichK67> | * If newhouses is activated |
| 11:42 | <RichK67> | o bits 7..2 : Current animation frame (bits 5..0); bit 6 in m3 |
| 11:42 | <RichK67> | * Standard behaviour |
| 11:43 | <RichK67> | o bits 7..2 : lift position (for houses type 04 and 05) |
| 11:43 | <RichK67> | * bits 1..0 : tropic zone specifier |
| 11:43 | <lestat_spanish> | It does good |
| 11:43 | <yorick> | wait-yes-animation frames got extended |
| 11:43 | <lestat_spanish> | Someone throws a game? |
| 11:44 | <@DorpsGek> | yorick: Commit by frosch :: r12347 /trunk (5 files in 2 dirs) (2008-03-06 14:21:10 UTC) |
| 11:44 | <@DorpsGek> | yorick: -Feature(ette): Increase house animation frame number from 32 to 128. |
| 11:45 | <yorick> | grr |
| 11:48 | <yorick> | which basically means nothing is free when newhouses are enabled |
| 11:48 | <RichK67> | yup, although i am sure that m2 bit 15 wont exactly be missed for a very very long time |
| 11:49 | <yorick> | but it is possible to build that many towns on a 2048 map |
| 11:50 | <yorick> | and what if it will go being missed? |
| 11:50 | <RichK67> | possible, but highly improbable... as you showed, you would have to have only 128 tiles per town ie 16x8 max. call it 11 squared: minimum separation is more than that |
| 11:51 | <lestat_spanish> | 87.223.193.135 |
| 11:51 | <RichK67> | and that assumes no space lost to edge tiles, etc |
| 11:51 | <lestat_spanish> | Someone throws a game? |
| 11:51 | <yorick> | hmm...yes |
| 11:52 | <yorick> | and with the extra large maps patch? |
| 11:52 | <yorick> | **future** |
| 11:52 | <RichK67> | doesnt increase the surface area beyond 2kx2k |
| 11:52 | <yorick> | I think it does |
| 11:53 | <yorick> | it makes 4096*4096 possible |
| 11:54 | <RichK67> | there are two versions. One with "reasonable" limits (max 8192 map, max 4 Mi tiles (2^22)) that aims for trunk |
| 11:55 | <yorick> | and that makes 8192x8192 possible |
| 11:55 | <RichK67> | no - work it out |
| 11:55 | <yorick> | weren't you saying something about thinking about future? |
| 11:55 | <RichK67> | 2^22 = 2048x2048 |
| 11:55 | <RichK67> | yeah |
| 11:55 | <RichK67> | i know |
| 11:55 | <yorick> | be carefull |
| 11:55 | <RichK67> | its obviously not an adequate solution |
| 11:57 | <Wolf01> | hi RichK67, I noticed the screens of your new work, really nice, congratulations, I hope you'll finish it :D |
| 11:57 | <RichK67> | its an experiment - it might not fly |
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| 11:58 | <RichK67> | but it does look seriously cool though ;) :) |
| 11:58 | <RichK67> | just breaks a lot of things ;) |
| 11:58 | <yorick> | m3 bits 5432 seem exploitable |
| 11:58 | <lestat_spanish> | bye |
| 11:58 | <yorick> | bye |
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| 11:59 | <RichK67> | once a house is complete, m3 is fully used for date of build |
| 11:59 | <RichK67> | bah |
| 11:59 | <RichK67> | m5 |
| 12:00 | <yorick> | I don't know how, but landscape #2 says "bit is accessed, but does not really have a meaning (e.g. owner of clear land is always OWNER_NONE)" |
| 12:00 | <RichK67> | m3 bit 5 : bit 6 of current animation frame (see m6) |
| 12:00 | <RichK67> | m3 bits 4..0 : triggers activated (newhouses) |
| 12:00 | <yorick> | maybe the triggers could be compressed? |
| 12:01 | <yorick> | I don't know though |
| 12:03 | <yorick> | you could decrease animation counter to 49 |
| 12:04 | <RichK67> | i would rather add m8, than damage someone else's developments |
| 12:06 | <yorick> | then m8 would be a bool? |
| 12:06 | <RichK67> | nah add a full byte, and then i would probably relocate all snow/desert related bits into it, so m8 represents all climate related info |
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| 12:07 | <yorick> | how does ttdpatch cope with extra bits needed? |
| 12:07 | <RichK67> | this is not for patch... and wont work on it |
| 12:07 | <yorick> | that's right, but I'm just curious |
| 12:08 | <RichK67> | afaik, patch cannot load any OTTD game, so it cant handle what we have already |
| 12:09 | <yorick> | no, I mean, I guess ttdpatch needs map array bits aswell someway, how do they do it, also by extending the map array someway? |
| 12:10 | <RichK67> | no idea... ive never really paid much/any attention to their internals. its enough hassle trying to cope with the mess of newgrf |
| 12:11 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | my "educated guess" is that [savegame wise] new data is stored in new chunks, to keep upwards compatibility for old versions that cannot understand this chunk |
| 12:12 | <yorick> | I guess adding m8 would solve most of the problems RickK has |
| 12:13 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | what are you trying to do anyway? |
| 12:13 | <yorick> | then relocate density, ground type in it |
| 12:13 | <yorick> | he's finding a free bit for houses |
| 12:13 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | yes, i figured that, but why? |
| 12:14 | <yorick> | to have tropical, arctic, temperate in one map |
| 12:14 | <RichK67> | yeah - as i say, there is climate info splattered all over the place - eg. snow is m4 bit 3..0=C in rails, m5 bit 4..2=4 in clear, m3 bit 7 in roads, etc |
| 12:14 | <RichK67> | Eddi|zuHause2: i have a prototype working, but houses are a pain, as they use all bits |
| 12:14 | <yorick> | we could have snow-aware default towns aswell |
| 12:15 | <RichK67> | http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=36764 |
| 12:15 | <yorick> | and m6 bits 1..0 |
| 12:16 | <yorick> | I would say: go for m8! |
| 12:17 | <RichK67> | my experiment expands the tropiczone to m6 0..2, where 0=temperate, 1=arctic, 3=toyland, 4=tropic normal, 5=tropic desert, 6=tropic rain |
| 12:17 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | http://gonozalviii.go.funpic.de/openttd/terrain.png <- have you considered these? |
| 12:18 | <yorick> | do you need 3 bits for that? |
| 12:18 | <RichK67> | that looks nice |
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| 12:19 | <RichK67> | its an experiment - i needed a way to store more climate info, and we already had 4 states available using the common-to-all tropiczone, so i just added one bit and redefined it |
| 12:20 | <RichK67> | m8 would be nice, and using that 8 bit version would be cool |
| 12:20 | <RichK67> | i could then make old and new entirely switchable: use old settings, or use m8 |
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| 12:22 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | i'm not sure what a switch like this should achieve |
| 12:23 | <yorick> | I'm going for m8 |
| 12:24 | <RichK67> | keeping some people happy? one side effect of the all-climate terrain is that some newgrfs that are climate dependant will get broken by it, as the TTDP newgrf wont be able to query the new climate settings correctly |
| 12:24 | <yorick> | we could extend to toyland aswell |
| 12:24 | <yorick> | hmm |
| 12:24 | <yorick> | OpenGFX does so |
| 12:24 | <RichK67> | yeah, i noticed that - have climate as 0..2, with 4=toyland |
| 12:25 | <RichK67> | opengfx does sprite replacement globally, i have to keep all graphics in memory at the same time |
| 12:25 | <yorick> | grf's should be able to define 2 versions of the snow sprite: one to be used for temperate, other one for arctic snow |
| 12:25 | <RichK67> | its already got temperate snow working |
| 12:26 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | apo'strophe's 'should not be abu'sed |
| 12:26 | <yorick> | I'm used to it |
| 12:26 | <RichK67> | pedants untie |
| 12:27 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | it has nothing to do with "pedants"... it's occasionally a big problem for non-native speakers to do on-the-fly error-compensation |
| 12:27 | <yorick> | another problem: what industries should go where? what cargo should towns accept? which vehicles could be used where? |
| 12:28 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | yorick: all newgrf |
| 12:29 | <yorick> | should water & food be available anywhere? or only to be built at depots in tropic or arctic zone? |
| 12:29 | <RichK67> | yup, my current compromise is that you get the buildings and industries of whatever is the "base" climate you select - so you either get a temperate/arctic/tropic industry set.... or, someone nice could actually produce an all-climates-industries newgrf :) |
| 12:29 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | yorick: the default climates should not be changed, only the possibility of a combination opened |
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| 12:30 | <yorick> | that 2 answers can't really be combined ^^ |
| 12:30 | <yorick> | one is talking about base climate, other about "mixed" climate |
| 12:30 | <RichK67> | i did once ask in the TTDP forum, but they werent too receptive to something that would only work in OTTD |
| 12:30 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | hihi ;) |
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| 12:31 | <RichK67> | the "base" climate is the one you select when you generate.... it then creates the world with that climate's attributes, but with the map painted in the other climates' terrain as appropriate |
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| 12:32 | <RichK67> | its just an experiment, so anything is up for change though |
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| 12:32 | <RichK67> | my preference would be to have all climates available, all houses of all climate available, all industries, etc... but one step at a time |
| 12:33 | <RichK67> | and then, once it is working, you can always restrict the map back to one climate if desired |
| 12:34 | <RichK67> | ie. the current climate selections are a subset of the whole world climate |
| 12:35 | <yorick> | and how are maps supposed to be generated? |
| 12:35 | <yorick> | what zone should go where? |
| 12:35 | <yorick> | north-to-south? |
| 12:36 | <RichK67> | have you looked at my screenshots? |
| 12:36 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | yorick: those are map generator options, they should all be user-adjustable |
| 12:37 | <yorick> | the North pole is arctic, Northen hemisphere is temperate, the southern one is desert, and the south pole is a secret toyland pinguing utopia? |
| 12:37 | <RichK67> | ive generated the climate zones using the perlin random noise algorithms, but done in large swathes, rather than the finer terrain detail |
| 12:37 | <RichK67> | no toyland in the auto generator |
| 12:37 | <yorick> | hehe |
| 12:38 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | civ has a lot of generators for climate zones |
| 12:38 | <RichK67> | its more a concept of concentric rings - it doesnt make sense to have arctic next to tropic without some temperate inbetween, so thats what ive created |
| 12:38 | <RichK67> | but look at the screens |
| 12:38 | <yorick> | I did |
| 12:40 | <RichK67> | ok, ill just generate another random one, and post it |
| 12:42 | <RichK67> | http://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=88309 |
| 12:43 | <yorick> | hmm |
| 12:43 | <yorick> | snow agains tropical |
| 12:43 | <RichK67> | snow in temperate against tropical ... a problem not yet resolved |
| 12:43 | <RichK67> | its not arctic snow |
| 12:44 | <yorick> | like desert against temperate |
| 12:44 | <RichK67> | yup, there are missing "transitions" |
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| 12:44 | <RichK67> | NB as i said earlier, its experimental (grrr... why do ppl expect completeness on prototypes!) |
| 12:45 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | i see no real problem with snow in tropical (assuming you get transition graphics at a later point) |
| 12:45 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | maybe with different snow lines (-1 for arctic, +1 for tropic) |
| 12:45 | <yorick> | think real |
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| 12:46 | <RichK67> | already have that changing snowline - snowline in temperate is +1 relative to arctic |
| 12:46 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | yeah, i noticed ;) |
| 12:46 | <RichK67> | yorick: my kilamanjaro has permanent icecap on the equator - its tropical |
| 12:46 | <RichK67> | mt not my |
| 12:49 | <yorick> | there is a tropical thing inbetween desert and rainforest, isn't there? |
| 12:49 | <RichK67> | personally, i would like to have arctic deserts (eg. Gobi), temperate deserts (Asian steppe in summer) |
| 12:49 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | yorick: that is calculated on-the-fly |
| 12:49 | <RichK67> | yes, TROPIC_NORMAL - ie grass |
| 12:50 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | (if you mean the grass-desert transition) |
| 12:50 | <yorick> | yes |
| 12:50 | <RichK67> | grass-desert transition is only 1 tile of "mixed" |
| 12:50 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | RichK67: well, with 3 bits you have 8 terrain types at your disposal ;) |
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| 12:51 | <RichK67> | LA! |
| 12:52 | <yorick> | for a momen |
| 12:52 | <yorick> | t |
| 12:52 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | RichK67: also allow for newgrfs to specify what terrain number should mean something |
| 12:52 | <yorick> | he's taking a break |
| 12:52 | <LordAzamath> | a break.. gotchya |
| 12:52 | <RichK67> | Eddi|zuHause2: ? sorry what do you mean? |
| 12:53 | <LordAzamath> | RichK67: Did you get help from Zephyris? |
| 12:53 | <yorick> | bare rocks, do they exist? |
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| 12:53 | <yorick> | rocks have no density? ok, thanks |
| 12:53 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | RichK67: i mean for newgrfs to redefine terrain types |
| 12:53 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | to mean something other than desert, for example |
| 12:53 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | like swampland or something |
| 12:54 | <DaleStan> | <yorick> no, I mean, I guess ttdpatch needs map array bits aswell someway, how do they do it <-- We allocate the various new arrays (L6, L7, L8) at runtime, if the config calls for it. And then use some magic I don't quite understand so all accesses to them are as fast and as efficient as if they were compile-time allocated. |
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| 12:54 | <yorick> | :D |
| 12:55 | * | LordAzamath got confuzzad |
| 12:55 | <yorick> | you have 8 arrays aswell? |
| 12:55 | <RichK67> | LA: check out the screenies :) Zephyris came up trumps http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=36764 |
| 12:57 | <DaleStan> | Yep. L8 doesn't do much yet, though. |
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| 12:57 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | yorick: we only have two arrays |
| 12:57 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | the names m1..m7 are hysterical |
| 12:57 | <yorick> | 6 and 7 added |
| 12:57 | <RichK67> | Eddi|zuHause2: this will probably not allow newgrfs to redefine anything terrain wise, as they are all geared to overwriting the core terrain graphics, not staying separately resident at the same time |
| 12:58 | <LordAzamath> | aaaaa... |
| 12:58 | <LordAzamath> | RichK67: Any full zoom screenies? |
| 12:58 | <LordAzamath> | I'm interested in transition sprites :P |
| 12:58 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | RichK67: i know, i mean the far future... |
| 12:58 | <RichK67> | yeah, but they dont show much |
| 12:58 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | once upon a time, in a galaxy far far away... |
| 12:59 | <RichK67> | Eddi|zuHause2: i would have to trap the attempted relocation, and then map over my load of the newterrain sprites |
| 13:00 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | RichK67: well, the main idea is to have anything you design now already as newgrf, to not have to add a second logic for newgrf terrains |
| 13:01 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | a newgrf would then provide a number of available terrains, terrain graphics for each terrain number, transition graphics, and maybe a few flags how the terrain should behave (do towns need food? water? etc.) |
| 13:01 | <RichK67> | no go. it will NOT be newgrf... it is and will be a specially prepared (and thus logically organised) sprite set... i need a strict, and predictable sprite order. newgrf does not provide that |
| 13:03 | <LordAzamath> | cu someday |
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| 13:03 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | why sprite order? you have n terrain sprites, and n/2*(n-1) transition sprites [nxn-triangular matrix] |
| 13:05 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | then some house magic to figure out the proper ground sprite for each house type, and wether it is allowed on this terrain (e.g. swampland might not support skyscrapers) |
| 13:05 | <yorick> | http://pastebin.com/m1614d48 |
| 13:06 | <RichK67> | because normally tropical or arctic sprites are loaded in over the temperate tiles. i need to keep all 3 sets active at the same time. to ensure that i can do a simple relocation, i can just multiply the climate 0,1,2,3 by the number of sprites in the set... i dont have to go hunting through the mishmash of newgrf junk to find what i need |
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| 13:08 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | i don't see the problem with that, you can still address the terrain sprites by the terrain index |
| 13:08 | <yorick> | it even allows for another rough/rocks ground thing |
| 13:09 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | what i am trying to say, is, if you design such a complex feature, make it as flexible as you can |
| 13:09 | <RichK67> | my point is that my design *is* simple... its newgrf that is the complicated, and not very useful thing here |
| 13:10 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | i don't see the advantage of hardcoding sprite numbers into the algorithm |
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| 13:10 | <RichK67> | and i cant wait for the whines from the TTDP side of "this doesnt work with my XYZ newgrf" ... tough, sometimes for progress, the old things must be sacrificed |
| 13:11 | <RichK67> | ok, Eddi|zuHause2, off you go and code your version then... the terrain sprites are hardcoded currently... so nothing changes |
| 13:12 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | solution to that is very simple: only add new terrain types if a newgrf specifies them, if someone wants to add a no-terrain-type-aware grf in the intended way, he can limit it to the climate it was designed for |
| 13:12 | <RichK67> | just take 1 look at sprites.h to see all the current hardcodign |
| 13:12 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | i don't think i will do any kind of coding like that ;) |
| 13:12 | <RichK67> | getting other people's hypothetical newgrfs working is the lowest of priorities |
| 13:12 | * | yorick feels like not getting payed attention to |
| 13:13 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | RichK67: it doesn't have to be a priority. if the design is "right", it will "just work" |
| 13:14 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | i just want to point your attention to the fact that people WILL request this at some point |
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| 13:15 | <RichK67> | Eddi|zuHause2: noted. and known prior. personally i dont believe in overcomplicating designs just to try to prevent something becoming obsolete |
| 13:16 | <RichK67> | the simple approach here is to say... create an entirely new terrain system first... then worry about how old features can interface with it |
| 13:16 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | the transition: have only default climates -> allow all climates on the same map -> allow to chose to not have all but only few climates -> allow to add my own climate ... is not that far fetched |
| 13:16 | <RichK67> | yorick: nice m8 idea... copied to my notes, thanks |
| 13:16 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | i am not talking about old features... i am talking about next generation features |
| 13:16 | <yorick> | :) |
| 13:17 | <RichK67> | supporting old newgrfs that dont understand the new terrain system is not next gen |
| 13:18 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | no, but creating own terrain types is |
| 13:18 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | and creating new newgrfs that understand the new terrain system |
| 13:19 | <yorick> | newgrfs are further down the implementation list |
| 13:20 | <RichK67> | well, that should actually already work... the new terrain graphics are loaded as ordinary sprites below the newgrf boundary, so you should be able to do normal replacements of them.... adding attributes i dont know - eg. your swamp under skyscraper thing... that may be a loooong way down the list |
| 13:20 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | yes, i am thinking at least 3 steps in advance ;) |
| 13:21 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | i occasionally have problems with people not able to follow me ;) |
| 13:21 | <RichK67> | but the (my) core terrain graphics will not be loaded as newgrf... i need to be 100% sure where they are to make display of them predictable - that is how the existing system works |
| 13:21 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | but what is the problem with a "dynamic" lookup table? |
| 13:21 | <yorick> | waaay down the list |
| 13:22 | <RichK67> | for the moment it overcomplicates it when there is currently no need/demand |
| 13:22 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | well, when you touch the code anyway, you can "do it right" |
| 13:22 | <yorick> | one has to have a base to build upon |
| 13:23 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | instead of leaving it like it is, and when later dynamicising(?) the code, you maybe miss a few instances |
| 13:23 | <RichK67> | i dislike this "do it right"... the only thing "right" at the mo, is anything that works |
| 13:23 | <yorick> | Eddi: do you have any coding experience? If not: then shut up about that waay down the list dynamic stuff :) |
| 13:23 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | well, yes, the first prototype is always to find out "how to _not_ do it" |
| 13:23 | <RichK67> | who is to say what is "right" anyway? |
| 13:23 | <yorick> | thank you ;) |
| 13:25 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | RichK67: well, probably not me, i just give opinions that you should already have considered yourself |
| 13:25 | <RichK67> | its proof of concept, so it can be a bit of a dogs breakfast... .so far ive proved you can create a terrain that zones nicely, and all the graphics can be displayed at the same time |
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| 13:25 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | RichK67: yes, but at some point, you have to step out of the prototype phase |
| 13:26 | <yorick> | which is not now |
| 13:26 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | at that point, you should be certain what is "right", not start to think about what is "right" |
| 13:27 | <yorick> | Eddi: do you have any coding experience? If not: then shut up about what is "right" :) |
| 13:27 | <RichK67> | newgrf is always an irritating issue, and i have little truck with newgrf coders who whine that their precious newgrf is broken by a new development... dont whine, update it ;) |
| 13:27 | <yorick> |
