| --- | Log | opened Sat Mar 08 00:00:40 2008 |
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| 02:12 | <Eddi|zuHause3> | why is it quiet in IRC at 5:45? hm... leave me a few minutes to think... |
| 02:12 | <@peter1138> | Well, that was a weird dream. |
| 02:13 | <@peter1138> | I dreamt I had branched 0.6 already. |
| 02:13 | <@peter1138> | Then I woke up, and I *had* branched 0.6. |
| 02:13 | <@peter1138> | Then I woke up for real... |
| 02:21 | <Eddi|zuHause3> | how do you know you are actually awake now? |
| 02:21 | -!- | Jortuny [~octernion@r253186120.resnet.cornell.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] |
| 02:22 | <Gekz> | lol |
| 02:22 | * | Gekz hears peter1138 yell out 'son of a bitch' |
| 02:23 | <Eddi|zuHause3> | well, i gtg |
| 02:23 | <Gekz> | you do that |
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| 02:42 | <LordAzamath> | hello |
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| 04:42 | <aleex> | Gonozal_VIII, ;) |
| 04:42 | <aleex> | Gonozal_VIII, why not monitoring the price? |
| 04:42 | <Gonozal_VIII> | who where? |
| 04:42 | <Gonozal_VIII> | ah^^ |
| 04:43 | <Gonozal_VIII> | because you can't influence it anyways? |
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| 05:29 | <Roujin> | ping |
| 05:30 | <Gonozal_VIII> | pong |
| 05:30 | <Roujin> | nice latency there... |
| 05:31 | <Roujin> | sorry. i was bored >< |
| 05:31 | <Roujin> | *yawn* |
| 05:33 | <Roujin> | isn't "show supplied cargo" in your pack gono? |
| 05:34 | <Gonozal_VIII> | patchpack is in... why? |
| 05:35 | <Roujin> | i reckon quite a few people are playing with your pack, so why the heck has nobody ever complained that the supplied cargo line is waaaay off for the newgrf rail station build window? >< |
| 05:35 | <Gonozal_VIII> | don't ask me... |
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| 05:35 | <Roujin> | nobody playing with newstations nowadays, or everyone just too lazy to report a bug? :P |
| 05:36 | <Wolf01> | buon giorno! |
| 05:36 | <Gonozal_VIII> | i would vote for lazyness |
| 05:36 | <Roujin> | hello there wolf |
| 05:36 | <Gonozal_VIII> | john porno |
| 05:37 | <Roujin> | depressing to find a bug in your own code that you know about 251 people have probably spotted it before, but noone reported >< |
| 05:38 | <hylje> | :p |
| 05:38 | <@peter1138> | When to software development. |
| 05:39 | <Gonozal_VIII> | when you fixed it, can you please tell me how then because i did a lot of changifications |
| 05:39 | <@peter1138> | It’s also fun when someone makes some remark that a bug is “widely known” but has never reported. |
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| 05:40 | <Roujin> | gono: sure, it's just one line that needs changing |
| 05:40 | <@peter1138> | Oh, coincidence :D |
| 05:42 | <Roujin> | theres an offset of 90 pixels if there are newgrf stations loaded (because of the selecting stuff), unfortunately I added the offset another time for the "Supplied Cargo: ..." line:P |
| 05:42 | <Roujin> | and seems I only tested without any newgrfs loaded back when I made it x_x |
| 05:43 | <@peter1138> | Pah, useless things anyway. |
| 05:43 | <Roujin> | what, offsets? newgrfs? stations? |
| 05:49 | <Gonozal_VIII> | everything spanish and french and italian and no english or at least german :-/ |
| 05:57 | <Roujin> | gonozal: apart from that little fix, i'm doing some cleanup/remove unneeded stuff atm... if you want to update it, i reckon it's easier to throw out the old one and include the new one once i've posted it in the forum.. |
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| 05:58 | <Gonozal_VIII> | cleanup and removing unneeded stuff are the changifications i did... |
| 05:58 | <Gonozal_VIII> | directly inside the patch file |
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| 06:02 | <Roujin> | well i now also removed the changes done to initial window size - they're actually not needed anymore because it's resized anyways to the exactly fitting size (since resizing was introduced in trunk) |
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| 06:05 | <Roujin> | just compiling now to see if it really works like it's supposed to... |
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| 06:16 | * | LordAzamath greets |
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| 06:32 | <LordAzamath> | how does one make an industry which behaves as a station with newgrfs.. Like the oil rig.. |
| 06:33 | <Roujin> | maybe it's only possible for industries on water for now? |
| 06:33 | <LordAzamath> | hmm |
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| 06:34 | <LordAzamath> | I was having a thought about underground stations... |
| 06:34 | <LordAzamath> | :P |
| 06:34 | <Roujin> | george should know something about that.. he's done fishing grounds in ecs... |
| 06:34 | <Roujin> | heh, underground stations |
| 06:34 | <Roujin> | funny guy you are :P |
| 06:34 | <LordAzamath> | I can do it just eyecandy with normal grfs too |
| 06:35 | <LordAzamath> | but then the houses on top of the stations won't produce anything |
| 06:36 | <Roujin> | I'd like to see a nice newgrf for that.. but not with normal houses but some sort of station bulding on top |
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| 06:43 | <LordAzamath> | Roujin, http://img369.imageshack.us/img369/9999/11305812bo8.png |
| 06:43 | <LordAzamath> | closed top and some buildings on it |
| 06:48 | <Roujin> | yes, this with closed top and some sort of station building would be very nice |
| 06:48 | <Roujin> | imo |
| 06:48 | <Roujin> | is what you posted an existing newgrf or a mockup? |
| 06:48 | <LordAzamath> | canadian stations set |
| 06:49 | <Gonozal_VIII> | what would be the point of an underground station if it has a station building on top? |
| 06:49 | <LordAzamath> | but the idea of an industry came when I thought that the houses on it should generate pax too.. |
| 06:49 | <LordAzamath> | :P |
| 06:51 | <@peter1138> | Feh, you just need *real* underground stuff :o |
| 06:52 | <LordAzamath> | peter1138, I didn't want to upset you devs again with the "An awesome new idea!!!!! Underground stations" thingie :P |
| 06:53 | <LordAzamath> | and then get pointed to numerous suggestion threads |
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| 06:53 | <Gekz> | peter1138: is creating an underground layer even possible? |
| 06:53 | <Gonozal_VIII> | why should it be impossible? |
| 06:53 | <LordAzamath> | well... you need another ui for that :P |
| 06:54 | <Gonozal_VIII> | transparency switch for the top layer :-) |
| 06:54 | <LordAzamath> | and what will it show on the bottom layer? |
| 06:55 | <LordAzamath> | needs sprites |
| 06:55 | <LordAzamath> | or void |
| 06:55 | <Gonozal_VIII> | bare land sprites |
| 06:55 | <Gonozal_VIII> | void is replaced with water for me^^ |
| 06:55 | <LordAzamath> | how would you deal with slopes iunderground? |
| 06:55 | <LordAzamath> | Gonozal_VIII, me too :P |
| 06:56 | <Gonozal_VIII> | no slopes underground.. |
| 06:56 | <LordAzamath> | but you have to have height differences nonetheless... |
| 06:57 | <Gonozal_VIII> | cut through the landscape layer by layer... |
| 06:57 | <LordAzamath> | now how many is the max height ? |
| 06:58 | <Gonozal_VIII> | you can choose which layer to view with ctrl - and ctrl + :-) |
| 06:58 | <LordAzamath> | ok.. |
| 06:58 | <LordAzamath> | make a patch |
| 06:58 | <Gonozal_VIII> | 15 is max height |
| 06:58 | <LordAzamath> | ^^ |
| 06:59 | <Roujin> | current design of map array doesn't allow underground stuff |
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| 07:00 | <LordAzamath> | new map array :O !! |
| 07:00 | <Gonozal_VIII> | if you don't care about size, you could have 16 layers of the current array... |
| 07:00 | <Roujin> | forget thinking about the ui or cosmetical stuff as long as there's no way to store the necessary information somewhere ;) |
| 07:00 | <Gonozal_VIII> | hmmm i guess it could be compressed a lot if most of it is empty |
| 07:00 | <@peter1138> | And at 256x256, that's the same 'size' as a 1024x1024 map... |
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| 07:01 | -!- | mode/#openttd [+v tokai] by ChanServ |
| 07:03 | <LordAzamath> | which leads to my current question about making your life easier and having a newgrf :P |
| 07:03 | <LordAzamath> | :O |
| 07:12 | <LordAzamath> | but I'll deal with it later |
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| 07:15 | <yorick> | <yorick> dih: I've been tinking about the moving-clients patch, what about sending a command to the client first, and only change the value on the server if a confirmation is recieved? <-- why is that a bad idea? |
| 07:17 | <yorick> | "move client company" _> PACKET_SERVER_MOVE_REQ(company) _> PACKET_CLIENT_MOVE_CONF _> PACKET_SERVER_CLIENT_INFO to all clients (all packets have normal priority) |
| 07:20 | <dih> | and what if i patch my client to never send a confirm? |
| 07:21 | <dih> | important rule: dont trust clients :-) |
| 07:21 | <yorick> | I know |
| 07:21 | <yorick> | if move doesn't work, server admins can always kick people |
| 07:21 | <dih> | then a confirmation packet is the wrong approach |
| 07:21 | <dih> | the whole point of move is so that people dont _have_ to be kicked |
| 07:21 | <yorick> | if a client doesn't agree with a move the way it is now, it will kick it on the next docommand too |
| 07:22 | <dih> | nope |
| 07:22 | <dih> | clients cannot disagree |
| 07:22 | <dih> | they can only not support it |
| 07:23 | <dih> | which is not the same |
| 07:23 | <yorick> | if I patch my client to ignore the PACKET_SERVER_MOVE, wouldn't that do the same? |
| 07:23 | <yorick> | and PACKET_SERVER_CLIENT_INFO |
| 07:23 | <dih> | nope |
| 07:24 | <dih> | you would send invalid data to the server |
| 07:24 | <dih> | and get kicked |
| 07:24 | <dih> | but not because you ignored the move |
| 07:24 | <dih> | only because you sent wrong details in your packets |
| 07:24 | <yorick> | ignoring the move is the first cause of kicking |
| 07:25 | <dih> | nope |
| 07:25 | <dih> | you can stay connected as long as you dont do anything |
| 07:25 | <yorick> | ... |
| 07:26 | * | LordAzamath heads to ttdpatch wiki |
| 07:26 | <yorick> | I still think the correct way to do it is from the client, because clients send the commands, and the server only recieves them from the client. You could also temporarily accept both players to execute commands to, so you could detect when the client has executed the move. |
| 07:27 | <yorick> | Or you could make the confirmation time out, so the server would execute the move anyway after a number of seconds |
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| 07:50 | <yorick> | what happens if a client recieves a command it doesn't know |
| 07:51 | <yorick> | packet* |
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| 07:55 | <Ammller> | Heya, someone around who does translate openttd in his language? |
| 07:55 | <yorick> | try on openttd.wt2 |
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| 08:00 | <yorick> | hmm...the join command format is pretty strange: ip#company:port |
| 08:02 | -!- | Osai [~Osai@pD9EB457B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd |
| 08:02 | <Wolf01> | indeed, it should be ip:port#address,telephone'company |
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| 08:09 | <dih> | did you try writing it any other way? |
| 08:10 | <yorick> | writing what? |
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| 08:16 | <dih> | ip:port#company |
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| 08:30 | <jez> | Hmm |
| 08:30 | <jez> | Are there any plans to integrate the copy/paste track feature into the main OpenTTD? |
| 08:30 | <yorick> | hmm? |
| 08:30 | <yorick> | no |
| 08:30 | <jez> | i'm finding myself wanting it a lot though :-) |
| 08:30 | <jez> | having to manually build cloverleafs is annoying |
| 08:31 | <yorick> | some see it as a cheat |
| 08:31 | <jez> | heh |
| 08:31 | <yorick> | cloverleafs are bad! |
| 08:31 | <jez> | ? |
| 08:31 | <Gonozal_VIII> | yep, very bad |
| 08:32 | <jez> | seem like a pretty efficient way of connecting my network together |
| 08:32 | <yorick> | they arent |
| 08:32 | <yorick> | they jam easily |
| 08:32 | <Gonozal_VIII> | http://gonozalviii.go.funpic.de/openttd/screenshots/junction.png |
| 08:33 | <jez> | slight problem with that is it takes up a mile of space |
| 08:33 | <jez> | cloverleafs are nice and compact |
| 08:33 | <Gonozal_VIII> | and slow... |
| 08:33 | <yorick> | and unifficient |
| 08:33 | <Ammller> | Gonozal_VIII: you know the code well now. :-) |
| 08:34 | <Gonozal_VIII> | yes, uniffecoint |
| 08:34 | <yorick> | unefficient* |
| 08:34 | <Ammller> | how hard would it be to change gui so it would be possible to build rivers in playmode |
| 08:34 | <Gonozal_VIII> | inefficient ;-) |
| 08:34 | <yorick> | not very |
| 08:34 | <Ammller> | unit the framework is done? |
| 08:34 | <yorick> | removing check and adding button, I think |
| 08:35 | <Ammller> | rivers is quite useless for mp mode at the moment |
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| 08:35 | <fjb> | Hello |
| 08:35 | <jez> | it's silly to see copy/paste as a cheat. any competent AI is going to be able to construct these things very quickly |
| 08:35 | <jez> | humans should have the same ability |
| 08:35 | <fjb> | Ai is cheating. |
| 08:35 | <yorick> | AI's have delays too |
| 08:35 | <Ammller> | jez: who said, is cheating? |
| 08:35 | <Gonozal_VIII> | http://wiki.openttd.org/index.php/Lively_Rivers |
| 08:35 | <fjb> | But ai is braindead. |
| 08:35 | <jez> | Ammller: some people, apparently |
| 08:36 | * | yorick raises hand |
| 08:36 | <Gonozal_VIII> | nah, copy paste is not cheating |
| 08:36 | <yorick> | fjb appears to be one of them |
| 08:36 | <fjb> | We should allow humans to cheat in the same way as the ai does if the human player proofs that he is as braindead as the ai is. |
| 08:36 | <Ammller> | Gonozal_VIII: yes, I mean that, but unit that will be done, we need something to have rivers |
| 08:37 | <jez> | fjb: i said a competent AI, something implemented into the noAI |
| 08:37 | <yorick> | fjb: AI's can terraform for free |
| 08:37 | <fjb> | yorick: Every player as braindead as the ai is should be allowed to terraform for free. |
| 08:37 | <yorick> | :D |
| 08:37 | <yorick> | terraforming for free is a bad idea |
| 08:38 | <yorick> | in MP, especially |
| 08:38 | * | yorick imagines flooding for free |
| 08:38 | <fjb> | But that players would be too braindead to breath. So that case is hypothetical. |
| 08:39 | <jez> | if you could terraform for free i'd removal all land |
| 08:39 | <jez> | :-) |
| 08:40 | <fjb> | Me imagines eight players each using mass copied stations all over the map. The one with the faster connection wins. |
| 08:40 | <Gonozal_VIII> | it doesn't work that way |
| 08:40 | <yorick> | shouldn't client_lang be updated with SERVER_PACKET_CLIENT_INFO? |
| 08:40 | <fjb> | Gonozal_VIII: How does it work? |
| 08:41 | <Gonozal_VIII> | paste speed is a server setting and the same for every client |
| 08:41 | <yorick> | client_lang is not sent to the clients right now, is it? |
| 08:41 | <fjb> | You can not limit paste speed without side effects on other players. |
| 08:41 | <Gonozal_VIII> | it's not instant pasting as in single player |
| 08:41 | <Gonozal_VIII> | you can |
| 08:42 | <yorick> | (lets see how flags would suit the client list :)) |
| 08:42 | <fjb> | How? Imagine a bottleneck in the network that suddenly comes free. IP packets jam at the the bottleneck and then reach the server all at the same tuime. |
| 08:42 | <fjb> | time |
| 08:43 | <Gonozal_VIII> | just try it in a mp game |
| 08:43 | <dih> | there is a server side patch for copy&pate |
| 08:43 | <yorick> | but, wouldn't the patch value sent in the savegame get invalid chunk size on unpatched clients? |
| 08:43 | <fjb> | That can not reliably work when packets are ariving out of order or in case of network jams. |
| 08:44 | <yorick> | TCP makes sure that packets will arrive in order |
| 08:44 | <dih> | packets dont arrive out of order |
| 08:45 | <fjb> | TCP caches packets until they are in order and then gives them to the upper layer all at once. |
| 08:45 | <jez> | copy/paste should involve functionality to tell the server to build all the pieces of the paste at once |
| 08:45 | <jez> | not in order |
| 08:45 | <yorick> | then you need a patched server |
| 08:45 | <dih> | nono |
| 08:45 | <jez> | well just a server running an appropriate version of openTTD (that has paste functionality) |
| 08:45 | <dih> | pasting is done tile by tile |
| 08:45 | <jez> | currently it is |
| 08:45 | <jez> | but it doesnt need to be |
| 08:45 | <yorick> | but that is not the way how copy&paste works (dih said that) |
| 08:45 | <fjb> | yorick: That is a feature of the network stack, not a feature of any user space program. |
| 08:46 | <yorick> | copy&paste works by doing DoCommandP's for each tile |
| 08:46 | <dih> | and the reason for the limit is to not block other players docommands |
| 08:46 | <jez> | i think we've had quite a long period of MP games with no copy/paste functionality and spaghetti networks everywhere. now it would be nice to have some MP games with well-constructed networks, and genuine competition between players, ie. who can build the most efficient network :-) |
| 08:47 | <dih> | pasting junctions is silly |
| 08:47 | <jez> | there could be a server switch to enable/disable copy paste anyway |
| 08:47 | <jez> | silly? |
| 08:47 | <dih> | how often do you need the same junction? |
| 08:47 | <jez> | very regularly? |
| 08:47 | <fjb> | On flat land... |
| 08:47 | <dih> | then you dont build well :-D |
| 08:47 | <yorick> | nope, custom junctions everywhere! |
| 08:48 | <Gonozal_VIII> | [14:47:19][14:47:19] <jez> there could be a server switch to enable/disable copy paste anyway <-- there is |
| 08:48 | <jez> | copy/pasting ensures you dont screw up a signal or something :-) |
| 08:48 | <jez> | Gonozal_VIII: how can there be, copy/paste isnt build into the client |
| 08:48 | <jez> | unless you're talking about miniIN servers |
| 08:48 | <dih> | then you build even worse if you have the tendency to screw up |
| 08:48 | <jez> | dih: shrug, i get bored with building the same stuff |
| 08:48 | <Gonozal_VIII> | copy paste speed on the server set to 255 is off |
| 08:48 | <fjb> | The server side can not work without side effects on ordinary users, as I explained above. |
| 08:48 | <jez> | as the brain should :-) |
| 08:49 | <jez> | please explain how you can copy/paste when the client doesnt have it built in |
| 08:49 | <Gonozal_VIII> | it's composed of normal game actions |
| 08:49 | -!- | yorick is now known as Yorick|AFK |
| 08:50 | <fjb> | Gonozal_VIII: When it is composed of normal game actions, how does a copy paste detection work? |
| 08:50 | <dih> | jez: if you always build the same stuff - how boring must it get? |
| 08:50 | <jez> | in terms of joining junctions, i build the same stuff |
| 08:50 | <jez> | in terms of the network, obviously not |
| 08:51 | <jez> | but yes after a while i guess TTD gets boring, but it is a long while :-) |
| 08:51 | <jez> | and you come back to it again and again, even if you are copy/pasting junctions |
| 08:51 | <jez> | it's a whole lot more boring rebuilding the same track |
| 08:51 | <dih> | how about never building a junction twice? |
| 08:51 | <dih> | using hilly landscapes |
| 08:51 | -!- | Wolf01 is now known as Wolf01|AWAY |
| 08:51 | <jez> | how about, there is 1 or 2 junction designs that are just better and you have to build them twice? |
| 08:51 | <dih> | and having a bit more of a challenge |
| 08:51 | <jez> | because i want an efficient network? |
| 08:52 | <jez> | and dont want to waste building time when i could be adding to the network |
| 08:52 | <dih> | check out openttdcoop's junctionary :-) |
| 08:52 | <Gonozal_VIII> | besides copy&paste is not only for building the same junctions over and over again |
| 08:52 | <jez> | my challenge is connecting the whole map up, not spaghetti tracks |
| 08:52 | <dih> | challenge is building that all, and not on flat terrains and not terraforming anything |
| 08:52 | <Gonozal_VIII> | you could for example copy and save the shape of the terrain and fix it if somebody (like the ai) messed it up |
| 08:53 | <jez> | not sure id bother with that :-) |
| 08:53 | -!- | NukeBuster [~wouter@a62-251-21-79.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd |
| 08:53 | <jez> | however the other thing very useful to copy/paste would be stations |
| 08:53 | <dih> | you play with the ai? ^^ |
| 08:53 | <jez> | i have great fun using it in the miniIN, i just wish it were in the main client |
| 08:53 | <Gonozal_VIII> | i tried a few times^^ |
| 08:54 | <jez> | i'd like the noAI and copy/paste in the main client, then i'd pretty much want no other features |
| 08:54 | <dih> | how boring must that be |
| 08:54 | <dih> | all stations looking the same :-( |
| 08:54 | <jez> | if you dont want copy/paste, dont use it anyway. why do you have a problem with it |
| 08:54 | <jez> | people who want to use it can do |
| 08:54 | <dih> | jez: you have no creativity :-) |
| 08:54 | <jez> | yes i do, i've just been using it too much for years in openTTD :-) |
| 08:54 | <dih> | i know people who use it for things thatin 70% of the cases look the same |
| 08:55 | <jez> | tired of horrid looking networks, i want a game where i have one really well-designed network |
| 08:55 | <Gonozal_VIII> | you could also paste some basic track layout to get things running faster and then optimise that... |
| 08:55 | <Ammller> | jez, look at copy&paste thead, there are "main" clients compiled with c&p |
| 08:55 | <dih> | if you track layout is 64^2 |
| 08:55 | <jez> | Ammller: not really, not downloadable on the openttd site |
| 08:55 | <Ammller> | but never join #openttdcoop with it |
| 08:55 | <jez> | it should be in the trunk imho :-) |
| 08:56 | <dih> | juck |
| 08:56 | <jez> | with a server switch to turn it off |
| 08:56 | <Gonozal_VIII> | 256^2 |
| 08:56 | <Ammller> | jetz, it has already |
| 08:56 | <jez> | then the server admin can decide on whether to allow c&p[ |
| 08:56 | <jez> | no, it hasnt, it's not in the main openttd client |
| 08:56 | <jez> | on openttd.org |
| 08:56 | <fjb> | There is no possible server side switch which doesn't affect other players. |
| 08:56 | <dih> | the server admin can controll the speed of pasting |
| 08:56 | <Ammller> | you can adjust the speed for building with c&p |
| 08:56 | <dih> | fjb: there is |
| 08:57 | <dih> | funny thing is |
| 08:57 | <fjb> | How does that switch differntiate betwenn pasting and the actions of a usual player arriving at the server all at the same time? |
| 08:57 | <dih> | if i set the paste speed to 200 |
| 08:57 | <dih> | then you paste one docommand every 200 ticks :-) |
| 08:57 | <dih> | and you cannot cancle the action :-P |
| 08:57 | <LordAzamath> | :O |
| 08:57 | <dih> | until you disconnect :-D |
| 08:58 | <LordAzamath> | that makes it quite slow, doesn't it? |
| 08:58 | <dih> | fjb: it does not work that way |
| 08:58 | <jez> | i dont understand, if there is a way to 'disable' copy/pasting on the server, what is the problem with having it in the main client? |
| 08:58 | <fjb> | dih: How is it working? |
| 08:58 | <jez> | those who want to use it can use it, it's an extra feature |
| 08:58 | <dih> | fjb: can you keep a secret? |
| 08:58 | <fjb> | dih: Yes. :-) |
| 08:58 | <dih> | so can i |
| 08:59 | <LordAzamath> | jez> that's why they are patches.. If you want to use them, compile them :) |
| 08:59 | <dih> | nice one LA |
| 08:59 | <dih> | :) |
| 08:59 | <LordAzamath> | :) |
| 08:59 | <jez> | LordAzamath: i mean why isnt it in the default set of patches? |
| 08:59 | <dih> | why does everybody what their fav patch in trunk? |
| 09:00 | <jez> | name another fav patch that is so unproblematic to implement |
| 09:00 | <dih> | move clients :-D |
| 09:00 | <LordAzamath> | :D |
| 09:00 | <jez> | huh? |
| 09:00 | * | LordAzamath wants move clients into trunk.... |
| 09:00 | <LordAzamath> | :P |
| 09:00 | <dih> | server talks mouve patch |
| 09:00 | <dih> | now that is a nice thing |
| 09:00 | <dih> | useful on openttdcoop |
| 09:01 | <dih> | then all chat from irc has a different color |
| 09:01 | <jez> | hmm |
| 09:01 | <dih> | and you can distinguish between spec chat, irc chat and company chat |
| 09:01 | <jez> | does the latest miniIN have noAI?: |
| 09:01 | <LordAzamath> | miniIN is WAAY old |
| 09:01 | <jez> | hmm |
| 09:01 | <LordAzamath> | and NoAI is only a framework |
| 09:02 | <LordAzamath> | latest miniIN came out about a year ago... I had not even joined then :P |
| 09:02 | <dih> | noai has noai |
| 09:02 | <dih> | nnothing else does |
| 09:02 | <jez> | i just think copy/paste is a major feature that makes a lot of sense, and is worthy of the trunk :-) |
| 09:02 | <LordAzamath> | true |
| 09:02 | <jez> | as is noAI |
| 09:02 | <LordAzamath> | jez, good that you think so |
| 09:02 | <jez> | (once it has some sensible AIs made) |
| 09:02 | <dih> | jez: play chrisIN |
| 09:02 | <dih> | btw: http://pub.dihedral.de/openttd/wwottdgd/r11344_server_tlaks_mauve.v1.patch |
| 09:03 | <LordAzamath> | and noAI can only cope with road vehicles atm.. |
| 09:03 | <dih> | http://pub.dihedral.de/openttd/wwottdgd/r11339_move_clients.v5.patch |
| 09:03 | <LordAzamath> | server tlaks mauve?? |
| 09:03 | <LordAzamath> | typos ftw |
| 09:03 | <jez> | lord: road, airplane, and boats actually |
| 09:03 | <LordAzamath> | wadeva |
| 09:04 | <dih> | and by the way |
| 09:04 | <dih> | the reload cfg patch was also an easy one |
| 09:04 | <dih> | but that is server only :-P |
| 09:06 | <jez> | why chrisIN |
| 09:06 | <dih> | yes - tb has been doing some work on noai |
| 09:06 | <jez> | it doesnt seem to have noAI or copy/paste |
| 09:06 | <dih> | chrisin has c&p |
| 09:07 | <jez> | ah |
| 09:07 | <dih> | at least i thought it did |
| 09:07 | <jez> | PDF doesnt say so |
| 09:07 | <dih> | and no - it will not have noai |
| 09:07 | <dih> | then it does not |
| 09:07 | <dih> | then ask for inclusion |
| 09:07 | <jez> | no actually it was added later |
| 09:07 | <jez> | why wont it have noAI? |
| 09:07 | <LordAzamath> | why should it have noAI? |
| 09:08 | <dih> | because noai aint ready |
| 09:08 | <jez> | maybe he should branch it |
| 09:08 | <jez> | have a noai build |
| 09:08 | <jez> | one day there will be good AIs :-) |
| 09:08 | <jez> | you can sit and watch them fight |
| 09:09 | <LordAzamath> | jez, maybe he should, but that's all him to decide.. They have real life too and sometimes not enough time to even update things (the patch collectors :P) |
| 09:09 | <LordAzamath> | btw and you can get noAI binaries http://nightly.openttd.org/noai/scoreboard.php |
| 09:09 | <jez> | does chrisAI have savegame compat with openttd 0.6.0-beta4? |
| 09:09 | <jez> | i've compiled noAI myself |
| 09:10 | <jez> | just be nice to have a ready-compiled one |
| 09:10 | <LordAzamath> | well.. there is one :P |
| 09:10 | <LordAzamath> | at the link I sent you |
| 09:10 | <jez> | but with c/p and stuff |
| 09:10 | <LordAzamath> | arghhh |
| 09:10 | <LordAzamath> | and who should compile and update it? |
| 09:11 | <LordAzamath> | you can apply multiple patches yourself too |
| 09:11 | <dih> | jeez... your a pain ^^ |
| 09:11 | * | LordAzamath agrees with dih |
| 09:12 | <dih> | like a little kid wanting to be fed by mummy all the time |
| 09:12 | <LordAzamath> | Belugas, where was the hungry birds picture? |
| 09:12 | <LordAzamath> | Somewhere in your namespace in openttd.org... |
| 09:12 | <dih> | LOLOLOLOL |
| 09:13 | <dih> | gimmemore.jpg |
| 09:13 | <LordAzamath> | yes |
| 09:13 | -!- | Draakon [~chatzilla@88-196-102-106-dsl.trt.estpak.ee] has joined #openttd |
| 09:14 | <Draakon> | hi |
| 09:14 | <LordAzamath> | helllo |
| 09:15 | <dih> | is that 3rd l a typo? |
| 09:16 | <Draakon> | ? |
| 09:16 | <LordAzamath> | dih: no |
| 09:16 | <dih> | hehe |
| 09:17 | * | LordAzamath never typos |
| 09:17 | <LordAzamath> | : |
| 09:17 | <LordAzamath> | P |
| 09:17 | <dih> | i.e. hell lo |
| 09:17 | <dih> | lo as in (hel)lo |
| 09:17 | <Draakon> | lol |
| 09:17 | <Draakon> | i get it |
| 09:17 | <LordAzamath> | hell no |
| 09:17 | <dih> | why not hell!lo |
| 09:17 | -!- | stillunknown [~stillunkn@82-136-225-75.dsl.ip.tiscali.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] |
| 09:17 | <Draakon> | LordAzamath; you just had extra l in your hello, so a typo |
| 09:18 | <LordAzamath> | dih, it's just I like to write helllo :P |
| 09:18 | <LordAzamath> | aka hello |
| 09:18 | -!- | glx [glx@bny93-6-82-245-156-124.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #openttd |
| 09:18 | -!- | mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ |
| 09:18 | <dih> | oh |
| 09:18 | <dih> | i though you were refering to hell :-D |
| 09:18 | -!- | Ridayah [~ridayah@137.81.113.87] has joined #openttd |
| 09:18 | <LordAzamath> | :O gl[tab] joined :O |
| 09:18 | <Draakon> | dih: why did you think that? |
| 09:19 | <dih> | because of the third l |
| 09:19 | <jez> | well, the trunk of openTTD is being updated regularly... |
| 09:19 | <Draakon> | k |
| 09:20 | <jez> | how is it decided how it will be updated? if putting new patches in the trunk is not good, why does it get updated at all? |
| 09:20 | <LordAzamath> | agh |
| 09:20 | <Draakon> | bugfixes |
| 09:20 | <Draakon> | duh |
| 09:20 | <+glx> | many of them :) |
| 09:20 | <jez> | ive not encountered any bugs for ages |
| 09:20 | <LordAzamath> | well that doesn't mean they don't exist |
| 09:21 | <Draakon> | jez: a similar question to you then: why do you go to school if the stuff you learn there is not good? |
| 09:21 | <+glx> | I can crash any beta3 and beta4 servers |
| 09:21 | <jez> | erm, that's a totally unsimilar question |
| 09:21 | <jez> | not even analogous |
| 09:21 | <LordAzamath> | glx, but beta5? |
| 09:22 | <+glx> | no killer bug for beta5 AFAIK |
| 09:22 | <LordAzamath> | probably with patched client, you can :P |
| 09:22 | <LordAzamath> | glx, where can I get todays changelog? |
| 09:22 | <+glx> | yes that should be possible, but beta3 and beta4 are with unpatched clients |
| 09:23 | <+glx> | on nightlies page |
| 09:23 | <Draakon> | no |
| 09:23 | <Draakon> | http://hg.openttd.org:8000/svn/trunk.hg/shortlog |
| 09:23 | <jez> | i have another question; is there a patch that changes the rating of your services? i think that's kind of a bug in the main trunk. you can only only usually get your rating up to about 75%, no matter what |
| 09:23 | <LordAzamath> | ty draakon |
| 09:23 | <jez> | this doesnt allow you to complete properly with competitors, you should be able to get up to 100% |
| 09:23 | <LordAzamath> | jez, it's not a bug |
| 09:23 | <Draakon> | jez: its not a bug and no, there isnt |
| 09:23 | <jez> | not a bug? |
| 09:24 | <Draakon> | yes |
| 09:24 | <LordAzamath> | it means you are not servicing it well enough |
| 09:24 | <+glx> | with a statue you can get 100% |
| 09:24 | <LordAzamath> | w/o statue you cant |
| 09:24 | <Draakon> | yes |
| 09:24 | <jez> | lol a statue? |
| 09:24 | <LordAzamath> | and your vehicles have to be new |
| 09:24 | <jez> | that... doesnt make sense |
| 09:24 | <Draakon> | it does |
| 09:24 | <LordAzamath> | yes it does |
| 09:24 | <+glx> | and always waiting |
| 09:24 | <+glx> | and fast |
| 09:24 | <jez> | so like bribing the local authority with a statue |
| 09:24 | <LordAzamath> | no |
| 09:24 | <jez> | i thought the game was based on service quality |
| 09:25 | <Draakon> | it is |
| 09:25 | <jez> | a statue has nothing to do with that |
| 09:25 | <Draakon> | it does |
| 09:25 | <jez> | what? |
| 09:25 | <LordAzamath> | a statue raises your.. reputation |
| 09:26 | <Draakon> | statues can make a lot of things then just sitting in the empty cold street |
| 09:26 | <LordAzamath> | and you can also make advertizing campaigns.. |
| 09:26 | <Draakon> | http://wiki.openttd.org/index.php/Game_mechanics |
| 09:26 | <Draakon> | read this |
| 09:26 | <Draakon> | and you should get your answers |
| 09:27 | <LordAzamath> | nobody has said that getting ALL productios as a monopoly should be easy |
| 09:28 | <Draakon> | true even in the real life |
| 09:28 | <jez> | perhaps it should be possible, if you are supreme, to prevent the opposition getting anything. perhaps all the ratings combined should have to add up to 100% (ie. they represent the % of the goods you get), so it's possible to push the competitors into loss. at the moment, competitors can usually get some profit even with a measly 50% rating |
| 09:28 | <jez> | which they get even with occasional pickups |
| 09:28 | <Draakon> | erm |
| 09:28 | <jez> | if you have a train waiting permenantly, and work hard to give excellent service, they should get nothin |
| 09:28 | <jez> | g |
| 09:28 | <Draakon> | this would be unrealistic |
| 09:28 | <jez> | or very little |
| 09:29 | -!- | Yorick|AFK is now known as Yorick |
| 09:29 | * | Yorick wonders how the client list would look with some nice and shiny flags in it |
| 09:29 | <jez> | not really; competition frequently puts competitors out of business. it sucks if you cant do that, that's the point of competition :-) |
| 09:29 | <Draakon> | jez: why dont you like the current raiting mecanism |
| 09:29 | <jez> | the mechanism is good |
| 09:29 | <Draakon> | so why do you complain? |
| 09:29 | <jez> | the problem is how that affects the amount of cargo you get |
| 09:30 | <dih> | jez is just of that complaining nature |
| 09:30 | <jez> | it should be possible i think to make a competitor that is performing OK take a loss |
| 09:30 | * | LordAzamath again agrees with dih |
| 09:30 | <fjb> | jez: You can already put oponents out of business with the current game. |
| 09:31 | <jez> | only if they're braindead ai opponents :-) |
| 09:31 | <jez> | if they're decent human opponents you pretty much cant |
| 09:31 | <jez> | they setup a station and do OK, they will not make a loss |
| 09:31 | <jez> | even if your service is perfect |
| 09:31 | <fjb> | jez: I did with human opponents. |
| 09:31 | <LordAzamath> | well.. if they are decent opponents, why should you want to not play with them? |
| 09:31 | <jez> | how? did you stop them getting ANY product? |
| 09:32 | <LordAzamath> | it is possible |
| 09:32 | <fjb> | When my service is perfect they get that little that they are making a huge loss. |
| 09:32 | <jez> | ultimately im thinking of having proper competition with a good computer opponent, hence noAI and the ability to prevent the competitor getting products |
| 09:32 | <fjb> | No, they still got some products, but not enough to get profit. |
| 09:32 | <LordAzamath> | and especially when you have two stations at one place of which ratings are both better than the other guys |
| 09:32 | * | dih ignore jez |
| 09:32 | * | jez is happy |
| 09:32 | * | dih enjoys the peace |
| 09:33 | <jez> | why are you in a chatroom if you want peace, idiot? |
| 09:33 | <jez> | go outside |
| 09:33 | <dih> | what a wonderful day this could be :-P |
| 09:33 | <jez> | i love people who come on IRC and say 'shut up, i want to idle in here' |
| 09:33 | <LordAzamath> | jez, why should you want a newAI when you only want to make them bankrupt... |
| 09:33 | <Yorick> | why are you in a chatroom if you want a discussion, idiot? |
| 09:33 | <Yorick> | go to forums |
| 09:33 | <jez> | LordAzamath: i want one i can compete with :-) |
| 09:34 | * | Yorick ignore jez |
| 09:34 | <LordAzamath> | then learn squirrel and write on |
| 09:34 | <jez> | Yorick: a chatroom is for discussion :-) |
| 09:34 | * | LordAzamath ignore jez |
| 09:34 | * | Yorick enjoys the peace |
| 09:34 | * | LordAzamath enjoys the peace |
| 09:34 | <Draakon> | ok what i have missed? |
| 09:34 | <Draakon> | :OP |
| 09:34 | <Draakon> | :P |
| 09:34 | <dih> | the peace :-D |
| 09:34 | <Yorick> | you should ignore jez too |
| 09:35 | <LordAzamath> | hmm.. I didn't know that /me ignore jez really gets him ignored :P.. |
| 09:35 | <LordAzamath> | or he just hasn't written |
| 09:35 | <Draakon> | jez: the problem is how that affects the amount of cargo you get<---- would you give some gold for transportation if there is no security on the train and it can break anytime? |
| 09:36 | <jez> | how what affects it? |
| 09:36 | <LordAzamath> | :OOOOO |
| 09:36 | <Yorick> | :s |
| 09:36 | <Draakon> | raitings dude, raitings! |
| 09:36 | <dih> | oh bother |
| 09:36 | <Draakon> | more raitings=more people trust you |
| 09:36 | <Draakon> | *sigh* |
| 09:36 | <jez> | i dont understand your point about security on the train :-) |
| 09:37 | <dih> | there |
| 09:37 | <LordAzamath> | here? |
| 09:37 | <dih> | Hostmask PRIV NOTI CHAN CTCP DCC INVI UNIG |
| 09:37 | <dih> | [15:37][15:37] jez!noisier@*.bethere.co.uk YES YES YES YES YES YES NO |
| 09:37 | <dih> | ^^ |
| 09:37 | <Yorick> | 1) jez (jez!*@*) Network: All Networks Channels: "" Options: IGNORINGCHANNELLIST |
| 09:37 | <Yorick> | :) |
| 09:37 | <Draakon> | jez: you want your gold stolen on that train? ok i will steal it, and no-one can stop me |
| 09:38 | <Yorick> | Draakon: /ignore +jez please |
| 09:38 | <LordAzamath> | :) |
| 09:38 | <LordAzamath> | [16:38][16:38] Ignoring "jez" |
| 09:38 | <Draakon> | good idea, hes "noob" anyway |
| 09:38 | <jez> | Draakon: um, there isnt a mechanism for transporting your gold on the trains |
| 09:38 | <jez> | you just get it immediately |
| 09:38 | <Yorick> | :) |
| 09:38 | <jez> | oh you're talking about the arid climate gold mines? |
| 09:38 | <LordAzamath> | and if we really want to know what he said.. |
| 09:38 | <Yorick> | finally, we could have a nice discussion :) |
| 09:38 | <LordAzamath> | !logs |
| 09:38 | <SpComb> | Logs: http://zapotek.paivola.fi/~terom/logs/openttd |
| 09:39 | <Ammller> | well, if you don't like companies to build rivers, you shouldn't allow them to build trees, too. |
| 09:39 | <dih> | Yorick: flaming aint nice :-) |
| 09:39 | <Draakon> | erm |
| 09:39 | <Draakon> | ammller: they can do both |
| 09:39 | <dih> | draakon is old enough to know if he wants to igrnoe or not :P |
| 09:39 | <Draakon> | ignore* |
| 09:39 | <LordAzamath> | draakon is younger than me.. |
| 09:39 | <dih> | yes :-P |
| 09:39 | <Ammller> | Draakon: how do you bild rivers as a company? |
| 09:40 | <dih> | LA - i could be your father |
| 09:40 | <Draakon> | i might be: |
| 09:40 | <dih> | Ammler could be mine |
| 09:40 | <jez> | maybe you could have a rating % and then, in brackets, a value showing what % of cargo your station gets? |
| 09:40 | <dih> | and Belugas could be Ammlers |
| 09:40 | <LordAzamath> | dih, and you are? |
| 09:40 |
