TheGrebs.com:IRC Logs:#openttd:2007:06:10

---	Log	opened Sun Jun 10 00:00:25 2007
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01:32	<CIA-1>	OpenTTD: miham * r10079 /trunk/src/lang/ (bulgarian.txt catalan.txt estonian.txt):
01:32	<CIA-1>	OpenTTD: -Update: WebTranslator2 update to 2007-06-10 08:31:40
01:32	<CIA-1>	OpenTTD: bulgarian - 29 fixed by thetitan (29)
01:32	<CIA-1>	OpenTTD: catalan - 1 fixed by arnaullv (1)
01:32	<CIA-1>	OpenTTD: estonian - 159 changed by kristjans (159)
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02:42	<stillunknown>	KUDr_wrk: do you work on sundays as well?
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02:49	<Phazorx>	stillunknown: may be you know
02:49	<Phazorx>	how can i get cghangelog
02:49	<Phazorx>	full since 8900 ?
02:50	<hylje>	svn log
02:51	<Phazorx>	no sn here
02:51	<Phazorx>	svn
02:51	<Phazorx>	canyou cat it to me somehow plz hylje ?
02:52	<hylje>	maybe
02:53	<Phazorx>	it's for our bug which came back
02:53	<Phazorx>	i want to track the release where it got fixed
02:53	<hylje>	8900-HEAD?
02:54	<Phazorx>	more like tail
02:54	<hylje>	1-8900?
02:54	<Phazorx>	i assuem it grows incremeantaly
02:54	<Phazorx>	8900-now
02:54	<hylje>	HEAD is now
02:54	<Phazorx>	8900-tail
02:54	<Phazorx>	ahh
02:54	<Phazorx>	8900-head
02:54	<Phazorx>	sry
02:56	<hylje>	http://media.hylje.fi/8900-HEAD-changelog.txt
02:57	<Noldo>	does constructing waypoint cost money?
02:58	<stillunknown>	Noldo: I think so, why wouldn't it cost money?
02:58	<Noldo>	I just had an unsure feeling about it
02:59	<Phazorx>	hylje you remember PS37 bug, reversing trains longer than station?
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03:45	<Noldo>	I wonder why SubtractMoneyFromAnyPlayer(...) is static
03:49	<@Bjarni>	maybe because it's only called from one file? :)
03:49	<@Bjarni>	use static whenever possible. It helps the linker
03:51	<Noldo>	hmm
03:53	<Noldo>	it is called from that file yes, but there is a need in one place elsewhere
03:55	<@Bjarni>	are you sure?
03:55	<Noldo>	and the need is removed by some nice tricery of temporarily assinging the _current_player global to something else
03:55	<@Bjarni>	if you need it in another file (in your patch), then consider if you decided on the right design, if you really need it and if so, remove the static if you have to
03:56	<Noldo>	and then using SubtractMoneyFromPlayer function
03:57	<Noldo>	well it's just a little thing and has nothing to with the thing I'm really doing
03:57	<ln->	why wouldn't you too temporarily assign something to _current_player.
03:57	<@Bjarni>	if it's unrelated, you shouldn't touch it
03:57	<@Bjarni>	at least not in the same diff
03:59	<@Bjarni>	actually I think it's a good idea to keep SubtractMoneyFromAnyPlayer() within a well defined area of the code. We wouldn't want a bug in say roadveh_cmd.cpp to take money from the wrong player
03:59	<Noldo>	true
04:00	<@Bjarni>	right now roadveh_cmd.cpp works on current player being set when calling commands or by v->owner.... kind of tricky to mess that up
04:00	<@Bjarni>	I mean to mess it up unintentionally
04:08	<@Bjarni>	hmm
04:08	<@Bjarni>	maybe SubtractMoneyFromAnyPlayer() should be a private function in the player struct...
04:09	<@Bjarni>	but this was coded when it was C only and it works
04:10	<@Bjarni>	well, at least SubtractMoneyFromAnyPlayer() could do with an enum... it's full of magic numbers
04:10	<stillunknown>	Bjarni: why was m7 put in a seperate struct?
04:11	<@Bjarni>	err
04:11	<@Bjarni>	good question
04:11	<@Bjarni>	I guess it could be some memory management so it's made like that in order not to waste memory while keeping it at a high speed
04:11	<@Bjarni>	high speed access, that is
04:12	<stillunknown>	So, i did remember correctly, was unsure.
04:12	<@Bjarni>	if I recall correctly, the struct is optimised for 32 bit CPUs... adding m7 would waste a lot of memory because then the struct's total size wouldn't be a multiply of 32 bits
04:13	<@Bjarni>	you can check this very easily... is the struct a multiply of 4 bytes :)
04:13	<stillunknown>	it would have become 10 or 12 bytes iirc
04:13	<stillunknown>
04:14	<@Bjarni>	besides it doesn't matter much as the code shouldn't access it directly anyway and it's not that tricky to ensure that the access functions can deal with this correctly
04:14	<stillunknown>	Bjarni: Do you know why most people here are very wary of community made patches?
04:15	<@Bjarni>	efficient memory is important if the game should keep working on old hardware or small devices like PSP
04:16	<stillunknown>	Is that the anser to my last question?
04:16	<@Bjarni>	no
04:17	<@Bjarni>	it's really time consuming to read somebody else's diff files and understand them. Usually it doesn't stop there because a fair amount of them are crap, some needs improvements and only a few can be committed unmodified
04:18	<stillunknown>	Bjarni: have you seen the hashmap improvement patch? (does it stand a chance?)
04:18	<@Bjarni>	if we just accepted them without the time consuming parts, then our code would become really unstable and much harder to read
04:19	<@Bjarni>	I didn't read it, but I think it has a good chance of getting added whenever it's completely done. Last time I checked, it still lacked a bit of work
04:19	<@Bjarni>	but that wasn't yesterday
04:20	<stillunknown>	I have improved the parts that were unclear to me, but what defines completely done in this case?
04:21	<Noldo>	It seems I didn't break anything
04:22	<Noldo>	AIs are crazy on a small map :D
04:23	<Noldo>	it terraforms so much it looks like the ground is alive
04:25	<blathijs>	Bjarni: Could you remove the old debian packages from SF?
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04:37	<CIA-1>	OpenTTD: bjarni * r10080 /trunk/src/players.cpp: -Cleanup: replaced magic numbers in SubtractMoneyFromAnyPlayer() with enum values
04:38	<@Bjarni>	silly... we used the enum elsewhere, but when reading the flag, it used magic numbers
04:38	<@Bjarni>	blathijs: sure
04:38	<blathijs>	Bjarni: Thanks :-)
04:39	<@Bjarni>	done
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04:56	<@Bjarni>	<Noldo> It seems I didn't break anything <--- I find that hard to believe... everybody breaks something. It's just a matter of time before the obscene new bug is found
04:56	<Noldo>	that's why there is the 'seems' word
04:57	<@Bjarni>	like the first version of autoreplace. It crashed in MP if the lag was too big
04:57	<@Bjarni>	like if a train completely left a depot before the command was executed (it was issued when it entered)
04:58	<@Bjarni>	so short trains and/or really bad lag crashed the games
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04:58	<kaan>	morning all
04:58	<@Bjarni>	naturally I never found that bug when testing locally
04:58	<@Bjarni>	it's not morning at all
04:58	<@Bjarni>	:p
04:58	[~]	Bjarni wrote his first svn entry at 6:18 today
04:59	<@Bjarni>	not OTTD though :/
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05:03	[~]	kaan thinks Bjarni needs to get a sence of sleeping the real morning away on sundays
05:04	<@Bjarni>	me too
05:04	<@Bjarni>	but I woke up and couldn't sleep
05:04	[~]	boekabart did, but didn't want to
05:04	<@Bjarni>	too hot
05:04	<boekabart>	lost half a day :(
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05:05	<kaan>	hehe, when you live by the lake and forest its nice and warm, not hot and dreadfull :D
05:06	<@Bjarni>	the same should be true when living at the sea :s
05:06	<@Bjarni>	but not today
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05:06	<@Bjarni>	wb Noldo
05:06	<kaan>	Bjarni: where do you live?
05:06	<Noldo>	I decided to ^S my irssi
05:07	<@Bjarni>	@home
05:07	<@Bjarni>	:p
05:07	<kaan>	oh, that famous spot near the sea :P
05:07	<@Bjarni>	I'm not stupid enough to give away my address in here... people could show up in person to try to make me do stuff to the code
05:08	<@Bjarni>	I can imagine some people, who might do that :(
05:08	<kaan>	I was thinking more like what country or sea ;)
05:08	<@Bjarni>	Denmark
05:08	<@Bjarni>	you should use /whois and you would have known :p
05:09	<kaan>	I dont use /whois, its never reiable
05:09	<kaan>	*reliable
05:09	<@Bjarni>	btw how can you be in Denmark and NOT be somewhat close to sea... ;)
05:09	<@Bjarni>	but it's pretty close
05:09	<kaan>	easy, take a look at nørup ;)
05:09	<kaan>	islands or mainland? east or west coast?
05:10	<@Bjarni>	you replaced sea with sø.... error in translation xD
05:10	<kaan>	hehe
05:10	<@Bjarni>	well
05:11	<@Bjarni>	if I decided to cut some trees and stuff, then I would be able to see Sweden from here
05:11	<kaan>	ok, thats the problem then
05:11	<kaan>	east coast in calm winds
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05:11	<kaan>	too much heat builds up :)
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05:13	<kaan>	ok, all of you guys with a personal vendetta against bjarni, go to sweeden and look for places where you can see denmark ;)
05:13	<@Bjarni>	shit
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05:14	<@Bjarni>	that would be like 90% of everybody on the other side >_<
05:14	<kaan>	And now they know where to look ;)
05:14	[~]	Bjarni decides to hide in Sweden and watch the people looking for him in Denmark
05:14	<kaan>	nice plan
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05:16	<mikk36>	lol
05:16	<mikk36>	what do you have against Bjarni, kaan ?
05:16	<kaan>	nothing much, i treat everyone like that :P
05:17	<mikk36>	so you have a vendetta against me too ?
05:17	<@Bjarni>	sure
05:17	<@Bjarni>	we all do
05:17	<mikk36>	:)
05:17	<mikk36>	at least i'm not different from you then :P
05:17	<@Bjarni>	hmm
05:18	<mikk36>	in that matter :P
05:18	<kaan>	consider me the great equaliser ;)
05:18	<Noldo>	what was the svn command to use when conflict has been resolved
05:18	<@Bjarni>	svn up?
05:18	<@Bjarni>	svn commit?
05:18	<@Bjarni>	svn diff?
05:18	<@Bjarni>	what do you want to do? :)
05:18	<ln->	svn resolved
05:18	<kaan>	svn --help
05:19	<mikk36>	hehe
05:19	<Noldo>	missed the d
05:20	<kaan>	oh well
05:20	<kaan>	i have this idea that i cant seem to get mysefl to start implementing
05:21	<kaan>	if i bother you guys with it i might do it
05:21	<kaan>	the idea is to make two classes: DepotBackup and VehicleBackup
05:22	<kaan>	They would be used when cloning vehicles and upgrading them across tracktypes and so on
05:23	<@Bjarni>	cloning across tracktypes?
05:23	<@Bjarni>	wouldn't that be autoreplace across tracktypes?
05:23	<@Bjarni>	and I wondered about that as well
05:23	<@Bjarni>	well
05:23	<@Bjarni>	sort of the samem
05:23	<@Bjarni>	*same
05:24	<kaan>	the idea is that you can create a VehicleBackup with a Vehicle as parameter and then it saves all the data, this makes the backup able to return the cost for several operations on that vehicle, like cloning or upgrading replacing and so on
05:24	<@Bjarni>	it should be two depots next to each other and a train entering one depot would be replaced to the other type in the other depot
05:24	<@Bjarni>	I just can't get assed to code it :p
05:24	<kaan>	and if there is money enough it can also execute the wished operation
05:25	<kaan>	Bjarni: that where the DepotBackup class comes into play
05:26	<@Bjarni>	have you seen how autoreplace works?
05:26	<@Bjarni>	it's a vehicle by vehicle action
05:27	<kaan>	if you use the upgrade tool on a depot then it will make a DepotBackup that in turn will make VehicleBackup of all vehilcles in the depot and then if all things are alright you can destroy the original depot and place a new one and populate it with upgraded vehicles
05:28	<kaan>	no i havent, and its entirely on purpose
05:28	<kaan>	im writing a new solution to an old problem ;)
05:28	<@Bjarni>	so if the train enters a depot, then get the money from selling it (before selling it), then move though it vehicle by vehicle to generate the new train in the other depot and then it was done, move the cargo, sell the old train and repay the price of the old train (you started by borrowing it and now you get the money again by selling, so to avoid double payment)
05:29	<@Bjarni>	it something goes wrong, then it can just sell the new train and report an error and the old train is untouched
05:29	<@Bjarni>	if done correctly, then this can be done for free so the money is also untouched
05:30	<kaan>	the whole idea was to make a "backup" that you can test to see if all things go well before actually doing any changes in the game world
05:30	<mikk36>	Bjarni, what would u say for the minimum requirements of openttd ?
05:31	<@Bjarni>	mikk36: depends on the map size and such... I used to run it on a 266 MHz PPC.... worked ok for decent screen sizes and map sizes, but it was more or less maxed out so fast forward gained max 10% speed
05:31	<mikk36>	with gui
05:31	<stillunknown>	mikk36: Depends on many factors (i know i'm not Bjarni).
05:31	<mikk36>	i tried it on 1Ghz Athlon, G400, 1GB ram and it was pure laghell, already at the start screen
05:32	<@Bjarni>	maybe the game is a bit more demanding today... it has been a while since I used that computer
05:32	<kaan>	Bjarni: besides, i was thinking of using the same money buffer as the replace function has
05:32	<@Bjarni>	1 GHz should be enough
05:32	<stillunknown>	http://bugs.openttd.org/task/853 <-- bug on the hashmap patch
05:32	<mikk36>	well, i got only maybe max 15fps out of it on the start screen
05:32	<stillunknown>	mikk36: what OS do you run?
05:33	<mikk36>	~800x600 or whatever that default screensize
05:33	<mikk36>	xp pro
05:33	<@Bjarni>	stillunknown: it's a patch, not a bug... see task type
05:33	<@Bjarni>	default is 640x480
05:33	<mikk36>	well, that then
05:33	<mikk36>	i
05:33	<@Bjarni>	I used OSX 10.2.8
05:33	<stillunknown>	But it's still on a bugtracker ;-)
05:33	<mikk36>	m on 1600x1200 at my work
05:33	<mikk36>	i'm*
05:33	<@Bjarni>	stillunknown: it's on our task tracker ;)
05:34	<mikk36>	editing pdf's relatively easily
05:35	<@Bjarni>	kaan: how do you plan on making the cache.... I would like to see that
05:35	<mikk36>	has anyone else testid openttd on a matrox card ?
05:35	<mikk36>	tested*
05:35	<kaan>	cashe?
05:35	<@Bjarni>	I know, but how?
05:35	<kaan>	what cashe?
05:35	<@Bjarni>	the vehicle backup thing
05:36	<kaan>	oh
05:36	<stillunknown>	mikk36: You have official drivers installed for your card?
05:36	<mikk36>	ofc
05:36	<kaan>	linked lists mostly
05:37	<@Bjarni>	but the vehicles are in the pool system...
05:37	<kaan>	oh, but im not going anywhere near using the Vehicle class for anything but reading existing vehicles
05:38	<@Bjarni>	then how will you restore your backup?
05:38	<kaan>	VehicleBackup will be your basic wagon or whatever
05:39	<@Bjarni>	how about storing the vehicle struct and then use memcpy to get everything?
05:39	<kaan>	DepotBackup::CloneVehicle(Vehicle v)
05:39	<@Bjarni>	you would have to deal with vehicle pointers though if you do that
05:39	<kaan>	oh, right ;)
05:40	[~]	Bjarni wonders if this can be applied to autoreplace without making it too slow
05:40	<kaan>	Im thinking that it will not be any kind of optimised code, but rather made to be easy to understand as these operations dont occour often
05:41	<@Bjarni>	wrong
05:41	<kaan>	autoreplace is one usecase this should work on
05:41	<@Bjarni>	it will happen all the time when somebody switches from one railtype to another
05:41	<stillunknown>	Striving for optimized code is always, but do keep it understandable.
05:41	<kaan>	all the time, as in every 5 minutes?
05:42	<stillunknown>	kaan: Imagine if a lot of features were coded with the same idea.
05:42	<@Bjarni>	as in "happens in bursts, which can make slow clients in MP drop because they can't keep up"
05:42	<kaan>	good point
05:43	<stillunknown>	Also keep in mind it should run on slower platforms.
05:43	<kaan>	this approach is mostly a memory expensive one rather than cpu expensive
05:43	<stillunknown>	How memory expensive?
05:43	<@Bjarni>	if the server is too slow, then it will delay sending "move to next tick" commands
05:44	<@Bjarni>	if a client is too slow, but the server can keep up, then the client has no way to tell that it's behind the action and it drops
05:44	<@Bjarni>	because of that we should try to even the load
05:44	<@Bjarni>	over many ticks if possible
05:44	<kaan>	that would be possible with this approach
05:45	<kaan>	you can restrict the making of backups to X per tick
05:45	<@Bjarni>	this is why autoreplace is nice... it works on VehicleEnterDepot() and odds are that it's limited how many vehicles that enters a depot during the same tick
05:46	<stillunknown>	mikk36: I hope you find out what your problem is.
05:46	<kaan>	but that would destroy the transaction idea
05:46	<mikk36>	i most propably won't
05:46	<@Bjarni>	yeah
05:46	<mikk36>	because i'll upgrade my work computer in max 2 weeks
05:47	<@Bjarni>	this is why two depots next to each other and an action on VehicleEntersDepot() would help... only one train enters the same depot every tick
05:48	<@Bjarni>	and then you wouldn't need a backup because you just delay selling the old one until the new one is complete
05:48	<kaan>	one of the ideas in this was to unify the way these kinds of actions is handled
05:50	<@Bjarni>	using autoreplace for this as well would unify it, but it would need some work on the autoreplace code to make this work
05:50	<kaan>	maybe its time i look at the existing code
05:50	<@Bjarni>	autoreplace_cmd.cpp
05:51	<kaan>	ill have a look :)
05:51	<@Bjarni>	I moved it to a file of it's own not long ago
05:52	<CIA-1>	OpenTTD: rubidium * r10081 /trunk/src/ (ai/default/default.cpp town_cmd.cpp): -Fix [FS851]: towns/AIs didn't build bridges anymore (boekabart).
05:53	<@Bjarni>	hmm
05:53	<@Bjarni>	I wonder how the backup idea would work on autoreplace in general
05:53	<@Bjarni>	I mean if it would be faster or slower
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05:54	<kaan>	that iompossible to say before i get around to implementing something that works ;)
05:54	<@Bjarni>	yeah
05:55	<@Bjarni>	but having a backup command would solve many of my newGRF compatibility issues as I can just presume it works and if it fails, then revert
05:55	<kaan>	thats one major selling point i guess :)
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05:59	<@Bjarni>	I wondered about how to make the backup, but just making a linked list (or actually an array of the correct length... we know the needed length when backing up) might do the trick if handled correctly
05:59	<@Bjarni>	but it would have to do way more than you just mentioned :/
05:59	<@Bjarni>	or else it will fuck up
06:00	<kaan>	Id prefer <List> as you can iterate over it
06:00	<@Bjarni>	since it's a fixed size, you should use vector. It's like an array, but you can iterate over it and extend it if needed
06:00	<kaan>	yes, there would have to be all kinds os securty checks and bell and whistles
06:01	<kaan>	ok then, i give in ;)
06:02	<kaan>	I was thinking that once you have a backup in hand, then you can ask it to simulate varius operations and return the cost, or even if its possible
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06:02	<@Bjarni>	it would be hard to simulate
06:02	<@Bjarni>	... or would it
06:03	<hylje>	transaction-based replacing!
06:03	<kaan>	not if its the same code that actually does the work when you turn simulate off ;)
06:03	<hylje>	now with military grade reliability!
06:03	<kaan>	hylje: yup ;)
06:03	<@Bjarni>	the problem with the simulation is the pool thing
06:04	<kaan>	i dont know one bit about the pool, please tell me what the problem is?
06:04	<@Bjarni>	whenever you buy something, it will end up in the pool
06:04	<@Bjarni>	when you sell something, it's presumed to be in the pool
06:05	<@Bjarni>	think of the pool as a giant <List>
06:05	<@Bjarni>	we just made custom code to handle it to make it faster
06:05	<kaan>	ok, then waht is the problem, every backup object isnt in the pool
06:05	<blathijs>	Bjarni: It's more like an array than a List, since every item has an index
06:05	<@Bjarni>	it contains all vehicles in the game (we use 16 bit VehicleIDs, so it's 64000 player vehicles+ some reserved stuff)
06:05	<@Bjarni>	blathijs: right.. good point
06:06	<@Bjarni>	all the functions to build and sell vehicles interacts with the pool and presumes that the vehicle is inside the pool
06:07	<kaan>	yes ...
06:07	<@Bjarni>	so mixing an external list with the pool would be bad
06:07	<kaan>	abstraction is key
06:07	<@Bjarni>	making a backup would most likely be just that
06:08	<@Bjarni>	the ability to store the info on the vehicles
06:08	<kaan>	the backup isnt real in any sence, but a real vehilche can be made with the data in the backup
06:08	<Noldo>	blueprint?
06:09	<kaan>	its just a matter of making the conversion at the right time :)
06:09	<@Bjarni>	the backup would contain the vehicle struct. Restoring the backup would be to request x free slots in the pool (it's returned as an array with a pointer to each free place), so it can be copied back into the pool
06:10	<@Bjarni>	so it would likely be like: backup, work on original. If it fails, then sell original and request X free places in the pool to restore the vehicle. Fix the pointers as it's likely not in the same location in the pool anymore
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06:11	<@Bjarni>	also cash flow should be 0, so you have to pay -income from selling the old train
06:11	<@Bjarni>	doing it any other way would likely cause more problems than it will solve
06:11	<kaan>	VehicleBackup::ProduceVehicle(VehicleType, TrackType, CargoRefit) soemthing like that, mind the pseudocode ;)
06:12	<@Bjarni>	if the vehicle struct is stored in the backup, then we store everything you just wrote as arguments
06:13	<kaan>	well in talking conversion they might differ in the new version
06:13	<@Bjarni>	so it's just store, and when reverting, it's moving the data back and setting up the next and first pointers
06:13	<@Bjarni>	and it will be 100% like the old one
06:13	<kaan>	well, thats drifting a bit far from my original thought now ;)
06:14	<@Bjarni>	err, every single vehicle pointer in the restored train should be checked
06:14	<@Bjarni>	dualheaded engines would need to set up a pointer to the other end as well
06:14	<@Bjarni>	<kaan> well, thats drifting a bit far from my original thought now ;) <-- maybe, but it's drifting towards something that might actually work
06:15	<kaan>	thats one way to look at it :P
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06:15	<kaan>	anyway, im glad that i seem to have inspired you
06:16	<Noldo>	I managed to get rid of _yearly_expenses_type
06:16	<blathijs>	Bjarni: What exactly would a "vehicle backup" be?
06:16	<blathijs>	a vehicle that doesn't really exist but can be cloned?
06:16	<@Bjarni>	both yes and no
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06:17	<kaan>	as i read bjarni its a placeholder for vehicledata that you can use to restore a vehicle
06:18	<@Bjarni>	instead of doing a whole lot of magic checks to estimate if a replace can take place, then it can copy all the vehicle structs into a vector and then just try to replace. If it fails, then it should sell all the vehicles in question and restore the original based on the data in the vector
06:18	<@Bjarni>	then the magic would be to ensure that no vehicle pointers messes up and that the total costs ends up as 0
06:19	<blathijs>	ah, to prevent autoreplace from failing
06:19	<@Bjarni>	the alternative would be to work on autoreplace whenever a new newGRF feature breaks it
06:19	<blathijs>	how exactly does NewGRF break autoreplace? Introduce unanticipated costs?
06:20	<@Bjarni>	well, it will ensure that in the eyes of the user, nothing happened if the replaced failed
06:20	<@Bjarni>	<blathijs> how exactly does NewGRF break autoreplace? Introduce unanticipated costs? <-- no. The last bug I fixed was due to the new engine that had the restriction that it couldn't be joined with the cars
06:21	<@Bjarni>	and because of that, the user noticed two half trains in the depot, both stopped
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06:21	<@Bjarni>	if the backup was in place, then it would notice the problem, sell everything, pay back the income from the selling and restore the original vehicle
06:21	<@Bjarni>	nomatter what went wrong
06:22	<blathijs>	Can't you simply create the new train first, then if that worked, sell the old train?
06:22	<kaan>	Its a good solution to that specific problem :)
06:22	<Noldo>	does vehicle purchase price change when bying and selling vehicles?
06:23	<@Bjarni>	blathijs: not if I only has to replace a few units of a long train, say like 2 engines in a 10 unit train... the rest should remain the same
06:23	<@Bjarni>	Noldo: not if the age is 0
06:23	<@Bjarni>	which it would be in this case
06:24	<@Bjarni>	blathijs: I tried making a brand new train and a few other ideas like it... they all failed
06:24	<kaan>	oh, i have to go or ill mis my workout
06:24	<kaan>	see ya later :)
06:24	<@Bjarni>	you don't need a workout in order to code
06:24	<@Bjarni>	:p
06:25	<kaan>	no, its entirely for the benefit of women
06:25	<@Bjarni>	ahh
06:25	<@Bjarni>	then it makes sense
06:25	<@Bjarni>	sort of
06:25	<kaan>	;)
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06:26	<@Bjarni>	Alltaken!
06:26	<@Bjarni>	long time no see
06:26	<@Bjarni>	nice to see you again :)
06:26	<@Bjarni>	hmm
06:26	<Alltaken>	hi Bjarni
06:27	<@Bjarni>	Alltaken is in the winter time... maybe it's a decent temperature at your place :)
06:27	<blathijs>	ey Alltaken
06:27	<@Bjarni>	unlike here :s
06:28	<Noldo>	Plaah, my computer can't take the heat :/
06:28	<Alltaken>	its 8 degrees max today
06:28	<Alltaken>	nice and cold
06:28	<@Bjarni>	then I guess you don't have hardware overheating issues right now
06:29	<@Bjarni>	Noldo: my computer can... except for the TV tuner >_<
06:30	<Noldo>	the other one that tries it's best to work like a server is not in any problems
06:34	<Alltaken>	Bjarni: well i have heaters turned on everywhere so yeah :D
06:34	<Alltaken>	i recently moved down south in my country, so i am prety close to antarctica now. nice and cold. perhaps i will get snow where i live for the first time in my life
06:34	<@Bjarni>	no snow????
06:35	<@Bjarni>	that's... inhuman conditions :o
06:36	<stillunknown>	Noldo: Is your computer undercooled or just poor hardware?
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06:36	<Wolf01>	hello
06:36	<@Bjarni>	last winter we had some snowplow trains that derailed due to a whole lot of compressed snow
06:36	<@Bjarni>	I think two of them derailed
06:37	<@Bjarni>	btw we lost our last commercially driven steam locomotive when it derailed with a snowplow
06:37	<@Bjarni>	... in 1979
06:38	<@Bjarni>	it's actually not that long ago we used steam
06:39	<Noldo>	stillunknown: undercooled
06:40	<stillunknown>	Noldo: then i suggest you fix it sometime soon ;-)
06:40	<stillunknown>	I have a low airflow system, but it's holding up quite well.
06:41	<stillunknown>	I must admit ambient temperatures have not exceeded 27-28 degrees C yet.
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07:20	<@Bjarni>	if it's a low noise system people want, then they should use temperature controlled fan speeds
07:20	<@Bjarni>	this way it will usually not make a lot of noise while they can still keep cool on a hot day
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07:23	<geoffk>	northbridge and use a system thats not overpowering its not needed for most things
07:23	<geoffk>	i can get by on PIII works to do anythign i need to
07:24	<geoffk>	i could use slower but restrictive of what desktop i can run
07:25	<geoffk>	having said that dont rush out to buy a pIII scram is like gold dust now
07:25	<geoffk>	sdram*
07:27	<geoffk>	i've even had problems buying fans to and heatsinks fit on some low end old systems
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07:59	<stillunknown>	Bjarni: a well designed system doesn't even need high speed fans at all
08:02	<stillunknown>	Unless ofcource it get's really hot (35 degrees C for example).
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08:08	<@peter1138>	get's?
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08:19	<Noldo>	which parts of the code make use of c++ features?
08:20	<hylje>	yapf
08:26	<Rubidium>	Noldo: lots of parts
08:27	<Noldo>	I noticed some :: in vehicle stuff
08:27	<Rubidium>	and it's not easy to tell you which ones exactly
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08:38	<Wolf01>	ooook, now that i have my new ipaq with windows mobile 5 i must look for a mobile ottd version
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08:41	<Wolf01>	how much old is this? http://handheld.softpedia.com/get/Games/Strategy/Open-TTD-for-Pocket-PC-11622.shtml
08:42	<Rubidium>	pre 0.5.0
08:43	<Wolf01>	this mean that i must set up a compiler for windows mobile
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08:45	<Rubidium>	ask them
08:45	<Wolf01>	brrr the WM5 SDK is 175MB
08:47	<Wolf01>	maybe i can become the official WM5 port maintainer :D
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08:48	<Noldo>	:)
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09:04	<@Bjarni>	<Wolf01> maybe i can become the official WM5 port maintainer :D <-- that would be nice
09:04	<@Bjarni>	specially if the port is a port and not a hack like the one you just linked to
09:04	<@Bjarni>	they screwed up the window GUI code to make it work
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09:06	<Wolf01>	i don't have enough knowledge to change massively the code to make it work, but i'll try to get it work as it is
09:06	<@Bjarni>	the general problem is that some windows are too big to fit on the screen
09:07	<@Bjarni>	how big is your monitor?
09:07	<@Bjarni>	resolution, not inches :)
09:07	<Wolf01>	mmm
09:07	<Wolf01>	240x320
09:07	<@Bjarni>	can't it be turned into 320x240?
09:08	<Wolf01>	yes, if i rotate the pda
09:08	<@Bjarni>	anyway OpenTTD is designed with 640x480 in mind so some windows default size is like 400 pixels high/wide
09:08	<Wolf01>	the camera software works in 320x240, so it shouldn't be a problem
09:09	<@Bjarni>	well, if you get it working, then we can talk about the window sizes
09:09	<@Bjarni>	it's the same issue on PSP and it more or less works
09:10	<Wolf01>	another problem is that i don't have enough buttons
09:10	<@Bjarni>	hmm
09:10	<@Bjarni>	how many do you have?
09:10	<Wolf01>	i have only the directional pad, and some other buttons around
09:10	<Wolf01>	but i think they are binded to the phone functions
09:11	<Wolf01>	as i saw that only 2 buttons were customisable
09:11	<@Bjarni>	that would be enough
09:11	<@Bjarni>	mouse + button + control
09:11	<Wolf01>	if you want to look at it, is the ipaq rw6815
09:12	<Wolf01>	the mouse can be used with the touch screen
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09:13	<@Bjarni>	then it's easy
09:13	<kaan>	4,5 tons later ....
09:13	<kaan>	im feeling a bit used :P
09:13	<@Bjarni>	the mouse is the touch screen, you have 4 direction keys, that can be used for control and stuff
09:13	<@Bjarni>	touching the screen is the same as a click
09:14	<Kjetil>	(tapping should equal a click)
09:15	<Phazorx>	ping peter1138
09:15	<@Bjarni>	we have different drivers to translate keyboard input (like different drivers for mic, video, sound and so on). We can just map the direction keys to keys we need, such as shift, control and so on
09:16	<@Bjarni>	tab = click, hold on the screen = hold down the mouse button
09:18	<@Bjarni>	kaan: so you saw a lot of bouncing boobs and sweaty asses?
09:18	<Wolf01>	85% of the SDK :P
09:19	<hylje>	DS port of ottd D:
09:19	<Sacro>	boobs?
09:20	<Wolf01>	we talk of sex and then Sacro popups...
09:20	<@Bjarni>	yeah
09:21	<hylje>	highlight
09:21	<@Bjarni>	I think it highlights on boob, sex and so on
09:21	<Sacro>	nope
09:21	<Sacro>	only highlights on Sacro
09:21	<Wolf01>	yes
09:22	<Wolf01>	we don't believe it
09:22	<@Bjarni>	Sacro: I don't trust that... you always show up whenever a word like that is mentioned
09:22	<Sacro>	Bjarni: i happened to be following the channel
09:23	<@Bjarni>	idle bastard
09:23	<@Bjarni>	peeping tom
09:23	<Sacro>	i idle in a few channels
09:23	<@Bjarni>	lurker
09:23	<@Bjarni>	since you always do that, then you have to spend a great deal of time lurking
09:23	<hylje>	LURK MOAR
09:25	<kaan>	actually i was almost alone in there
09:25	<kaan>	a shame really
09:26	<kaan>	there was nice aiconditioning
09:28	<@Bjarni>	they are tending some AI?
09:30	<Wolf01>	doh, i need visual studio
09:31	<Wolf01>	i hope the express edition is enough
09:32	<@Bjarni>	it would be nicer if the makefile could do the trick :/
09:34	<Wolf01>	i hope also that the free disk space is enough!
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09:36	<@Bjarni>	128 mb... should be overkill
09:36	<@Bjarni>	but then again you likely want to have other stuff on it as well
09:37	<@Bjarni>	416 MHz... might have an issue with background saving
09:37	<@Bjarni>	I mean it could slow down
09:39	<hylje>	priority!
09:39	<@Bjarni>	or take more than a month to save
09:39	<@Bjarni>	on the other hand it shouldn't play big maps
09:40	<+glx>	<Wolf01> i hope the express edition is enough <-- no it isn't
09:40	<Wolf01>	-_-
09:40	<hylje>	enjoy your crippled software
09:41	<@Bjarni>	it should be way easier to get it working on nokia S770 and similar (like S800... I think it's named). They have no screen size issues and uses gcc for compiling
09:42	<@Bjarni>	I hate when you pay for some hardware and then you have to pay for a compiler as well
09:42	<Sacro>	there already is a UIQ3 port
09:42	<Sacro>	but they haven't released source
09:42	<@Bjarni>	UIQ3?
09:42	<Sacro>	symbian
09:43	<Sacro>	http://my-symbian.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30981
09:44	<Noldo>	it's conceptually in the same level Series40 and 60
09:44	<Sacro>	i'd like it on my S60
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09:45	<Sacro>	"Unfortunately language file isn't simple text file and I don't know how to edit it." ← methinks he isn't looking hard enough
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09:46	<Wolf01>	is still possible to use strgen.exe to compile language files on the fly?
09:46	<Sacro>	yeah i think so
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09:47	<@Bjarni>	strgen would make the lng file from a txt file when you execute it with the right arguments... nobody tells you to do it when compiling the OpenTTD binary
09:47	<@Bjarni>	we scripted it to do so to make it easier, but you can do it later if you like
09:48	<Wolf01>	i think i need to buy VSstandard from bittorrent
09:49	<@Bjarni>	I heard that they have nice opening hours... like they are open on normal sundays
09:50	<Wolf01>	i heard it too
09:52	<Wolf01>	if it will satisfy me enough i'll go buy the hardware edition, call this a tryout :D
09:52	<@Bjarni>	I think many people think like that
09:52	<@Bjarni>	a whole lot of them forget the last part when the "trial period" runs out
09:54	<@peter1138>	:o
09:54	<@peter1138>	i ought to try testing it on my pocket pc device again
09:55	<@Bjarni>	as I said earlier, it's way easier when you can just use GCC and other free to download software
09:55	<@Bjarni>	you don't even have to think about making demos and so on
09:55	<@peter1138>	cross compiling to pocketpc was a bitch last time i tried ;)
09:55	<Wolf01>	i have a lot of original products, and now that i have enough money i can buy other original products (i'm trying to replace the whole pirate section)
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09:57	<@Bjarni>	what I really hate about commercial products is that I usually lack behind in gaming and when I realise some game would be cool, it's already out of the shops :(
09:57	<@Bjarni>	I even ended up searching for a game where the company went bankrupt once
09:57	<@Bjarni>	I guess I should have bought it earlier :p
09:58	<@peter1138>	what, like TTD?
09:59	<Wolf01>	i'm still loking for TTDX
09:59	<Wolf01>	*looking
09:59	<Sacro>	peter1138: you are wanted in #tycoon
10:00	<Wolf01>	about games, i wait 'til their price is <=15€, and then i purchase them with the probability of 95%
10:00	<@peter1138>	netsplit'd :/
10:00	<Noldo>	any devs who have warm feelings about getting rid of _yearly_expences_type global variable?
10:00	\|-\|	Peakki [antti@cs181000195.pp.htv.fi] has joined #openttd
10:03	<@peter1138>	hmm, is pocketpc little or big endian...
10:03	<Wolf01>	very little endian :P
10:04	<@peter1138>	...
10:04	<Wolf01>	which cpu uses?
10:04	<@peter1138>	arm
10:04	<@Bjarni>	windows... sounds like little endian
10:04	<@Bjarni>	and I think arm is little endian
10:04	<hylje>	arm can be either
10:05	<ln->	and leg?
10:05	<hylje>	head
10:05	<Wolf01>	yeah... arm can be both
10:06	<ln->	so can powerpc.
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10:13	<@Bjarni>	usually PowerPC is big endian though
10:14	<@Bjarni>	some of them (like PPC405) has a flag to set endianess. If you write little endian code for it, set it to little endian and if you has some big endian code, then toggle that flag
10:15	\|-\|	TinoM [~Tino@i5387CCE5.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 600 seconds]
10:22	<Wolf01>	Bjarni, i must wait and purchase VS2005 :(
10:25	<skidd13>	peter1138: I rewrote my patch about the text from the order caption widget. Are you ok with it (cause you're native english and me not ;) )? http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?t=31074&start=41
10:26	<Wolf01>	ah, Sacro (tits, to get your attention) about my friend who is unable to compile successfuly ottd, he tried with -d but it doesn't say a word...
10:28	<Wolf01>	with the nightly binary it complaints about language file errors
10:28	<Sacro>	hmmm
10:28	<Sacro>	it should return some messages
10:28	<Wolf01>	but the revision is the same
10:29	\|-\|	TinoM\| changed nick to TinoM
10:30	<Eddi\|zuHause3>	Wolf01: you have to copy all files from the nightly archive, not just the binary
10:31	<Wolf01>	the nightly works
10:31	<Eddi\|zuHause3>	Wolf01: are you sure it's not a dedicated build?
10:31	<Wolf01>	but the compiled version no
10:32	<Wolf01>	what's