| --- | Log | opened Fri May 25 00:00:37 2007 |
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| 01:03 | <mikk36> | dum-di-dum... |
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| 01:14 | <Jerub> | mikk36: what's cooking? |
| 01:14 | <XeryusTC> | the thing you do when you want to eat and dont order pizza :P |
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| 01:19 | <staniel> | mmm that would be lasagna |
| 01:20 | <staniel> | only 40 minutes till my late night snack is ready |
| 01:20 | <@peter1138> | mmmm, lasagne |
| 01:21 | <XeryusTC> | mmm, italian food |
| 01:21 | <staniel> | and not just any lasagna, its my mommas |
| 01:21 | <staniel> | 22 and my mommy still takes good care of me |
| 01:22 | <XeryusTC> | as she should! |
| 01:23 | <XeryusTC> | although i would have kicked you out of the house by 20 :P |
| 01:23 | <staniel> | oh, I was out when I was 18 |
| 01:23 | <staniel> | she just loves me that much to send me home with lasagna's, cookies... you name it, I get it |
| 01:24 | <Jerub> | My parents only just kicked out my 30 year old brother for the second time. |
| 01:25 | <staniel> | lol |
| 01:25 | <staniel> | christ, If I brought a girl to my parents im sure my mom would even provide the condoms |
| 01:31 | <XeryusTC> | note the if :P |
| 01:31 | <mikk36> | Jerub. matrox g400 is so weak that i can't even run openttd at decend frame rates :( |
| 01:31 | <staniel> | XeryusTC: I fear the day that I take a girl home |
| 01:32 | <staniel> | I don't date them long enough to so far :D |
| 01:32 | <Jerub> | Is this in svn trunk? http://wiki.openttd.org/index.php/New_Bridges |
| 01:33 | <Jerub> | staniel: When I was your age I'd been married for 3 years. |
| 01:33 | <staniel> | ouch |
| 01:33 | <staniel> | sorry to hear that :P |
| 01:33 | <mikk36> | and how old is staniel ? |
| 01:33 | <staniel> | 22 |
| 01:33 | <XeryusTC> | Jerub: yes |
| 01:34 | <Jerub> | XeryusTC: awesome. |
| 01:34 | <Jerub> | I should probably start building my own binaries. :) |
| 01:40 | <CIA-1> | OpenTTD: peter1138 * r9916 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp: -Codechange: Free memory used by cargo translation tables |
| 01:45 | <Jerub> | http://www.openttd.org/dev.php lists "user 'anonymous'" but it's not required. |
| 01:46 | <Touqen> | the client does it for you |
| 01:47 | <Touqen> | depending on what you use |
| 01:47 | <Touqen> | I think tortise will send anonymous if you don't specify one |
| 01:47 | <Touqen> | Though I very well could be talking out of my ass. |
| 01:49 | <Jerub> | So why is it listed? :) |
| 01:50 | <Touqen> | In the event that you do get prompted for it |
| 01:50 | <Jerub> | Interesting, the days in transit in economy.cpp is a byte. |
| 01:50 | <Jerub> | I wonder if it overflows.. |
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| 01:53 | <Jerub> | oh, it;s actually an array of two unsigned ints in another place. yow |
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| 01:57 | <@peter1138> | would you like some bolognaise with that? |
| 01:59 | <mikk36> | bolognese |
| 01:59 | <Jerub> | I actually understand what's going on now :) |
| 01:59 | <Jerub> | no, it's a byte that doesn't overflow, it maxes out at 255. After cargo gets that old it doesn't get any older. |
| 02:00 | <Jerub> | so there's no difference between 1 year and 2 for the time it takes to deliver goods. |
| 02:00 | <Jerub> | Ontick_Train is making me curious though. |
| 02:01 | <Jerub> | Cargo only ages one Tick in 184.. |
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| 02:06 | <@peter1138> | yeah, not really train related |
| 02:08 | <Jerub> | Hm. |
| 02:08 | <@peter1138> | of course, there are 74 ticks in a day |
| 02:09 | <@peter1138> | so where 184 comes from i don't know |
| 02:09 | <@peter1138> | possible a typo of 148, which would be 2 days |
| 02:09 | <Jerub> | uh, relevent lines are train_cmd.cpp:3382:void Train_Tick(Vehicle *v) |
| 02:09 | <Jerub> | and |
| 02:09 | <@peter1138> | yes |
| 02:09 | <Jerub> | train_cmd.cpp:2046:void OnTick_Train() |
| 02:10 | <@peter1138> | but it's not *just* for trains |
| 02:10 | <@peter1138> | that var affects all the other vehicles too |
| 02:10 | <@peter1138> | so OnTick_Train, with it's single line, is... dumb |
| 02:11 | <Jerub> | Heh. |
| 02:12 | <Jerub> | Ah! |
| 02:12 | <Jerub> | so this means that cargo ages two days at a time, so it can get up to 512 days old. |
| 02:12 | <@peter1138> | well |
| 02:12 | <@peter1138> | 2.5 days |
| 02:12 | <@peter1138> | approx |
| 02:13 | <Jerub> | except it doesn't, it ages 2.5 days at a time, which is 640 days. |
| 02:13 | <Jerub> | So that ternary is quite obviously a bug, but the question I have to ask now is: is it worth fixing? |
| 02:16 | <Jerub> | It does change the economic model, and it's something that's /always/ been broken. r1 |
| 02:18 | <@peter1138> | well |
| 02:18 | <@peter1138> | probably cargo_days is just named incorrectly ;p |
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| 02:24 | <Jerub> | oh, certaintly. |
| 02:25 | <Jerub> | at the very least it's 2 days, and is currently 2.5 days. |
| 02:25 | <Jerub> | any idea how I'd go further back in time than r1? |
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| 02:26 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | the same way you observe events before the big bang |
| 02:27 | <Jerub> | oh, okay, so r1 was the release from the sweedish uberhackers, right. :) |
| 02:27 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | actually no, there was an svn before, but it crashed, so the history was lost |
| 02:28 | <Jerub> | I just want to find out if 184 was once 148. |
| 02:29 | <@Rubidium> | take the first source from SF |
| 02:32 | <@peter1138> | you could always redisassemble ttd... |
| 02:32 | <@peter1138> | the cargo payment graph doesn't make much sense either |
| 02:32 | <Jerub> | The more I read this the more it scares me. |
| 02:32 | <Touqen> | Try messing with Yapf. |
| 02:32 | <Touqen> | If you want a scare :D |
| 02:32 | <Jerub> | at least YAPF wasn't decompiled. |
| 02:33 | <Touqen> | True. |
| 02:33 | <Jerub> | If I understand this right, then the cargo payment graph is a fuctiohl |
| 02:33 | <Jerub> | er fiction. |
| 02:33 | <@peter1138> | it's approximately days / 1.6, but not quite ;p |
| 02:34 | <Jerub> | The way cargo payment rates are calculated is: |
| 02:34 | <Jerub> | rate * dist * f * num_pieces |
| 02:34 | <Jerub> | but, 'f' is weird. |
| 02:35 | <Jerub> | How do I find out what CargoSpec->transit_days is for a particular cargo? I just want some sample input values for say, coal. |
| 02:45 | <Jerub> | Right, I understand this algorithm now :) |
| 02:47 | <Touqen> | HAHAHA |
| 02:47 | <Touqen> | There is definately something seriously wrong with the aircraft in the nightlies. |
| 02:49 | <Touqen> | OR they are just designed to appear to fly faster or something. |
| 02:49 | <Touqen> | Or I'm just really tired. |
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| 02:52 | <@Rubidium> | Touqen: now they fly as fast as trains instead 1/4th of the speed of a train |
| 02:56 | <Touqen> | ooh |
| 02:56 | <Touqen> | The plane inspired by the concorde is a bit obnoxious to watch sometimes. |
| 03:03 | <@peter1138> | Jerub: you understand it? can you write something up on it then? ;-) |
| 03:03 | <Jerub> | I was just about to paste a patch. |
| 03:03 | <@peter1138> | heh |
| 03:03 | <Jerub> | just wanted to do a little more verification |
| 03:04 | <Jerub> | C isn't my best language |
| 03:04 | <Jerub> | http://rafb.net/p/NQWMkN17.html |
| 03:04 | <Jerub> | I am worried about overflows. |
| 03:04 | <Jerub> | I have not tested it for all possible input values. |
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| 03:08 | <kaan> | goodmorning all |
| 03:08 | <Jerub> | To cut a long story short, f is 255 until transit days 1, it then decreases by 1 per day until transit days 2, at which point it decreases by 2 per day |
| 03:08 | <Jerub> | with a minimum value of 31. |
| 03:12 | <Jerub> | I totally don't like that byte being there, it scares me. |
| 03:12 | <Jerub> | - byte f; |
| 03:12 | <Jerub> | + int f; |
| 03:12 | <Jerub> | changing it to an int is just safer. |
| 03:13 | <@peter1138> | it can't be more than 255, heh |
| 03:13 | <@peter1138> | as cargo_days is a byte |
| 03:13 | <CIA-1> | OpenTTD: rubidium * r9917 /trunk/src/ (9 files): -Codechange: prepare some more areas for more road types. |
| 03:13 | <Jerub> | peter1138: it's possible to overflow in that single line though I think. I'm not good with C. |
| 03:13 | <Jerub> | f = 255 - 2 * transit_days + 2 * cs->transit_days[0] + cs->transit_days[1]; |
| 03:14 | <@peter1138> | i'm not convinced that it is a worthwhile cleanup |
| 03:15 | <Jerub> | The thing that scares me in this function even more is further up |
| 03:15 | <Jerub> | uint32 var18 = min(dist, 0xFFFF) | (min(num_pieces, 0xFF) << 16) | (transit_days << 24); |
| 03:15 | <Jerub> | uint16 callback = GetCargoCallback(CBID_CARGO_PROFIT_CALC, 0, var18, cs); |
| 03:15 | <@peter1138> | why? |
| 03:16 | <Jerub> | param1 is unused, and param2 is packed with a bunch of values and stuffed into a uint32 |
| 03:16 | <@peter1138> | yes |
| 03:17 | <@peter1138> | because that's what the callback expects |
| 03:17 | <Jerub> | But that's the only place the callback functionality is defined or used. |
| 03:17 | <@peter1138> | currently, yes. there is another place it will be sued |
| 03:17 | <@peter1138> | *used |
| 03:18 | <@peter1138> | heh |
| 03:18 | <@peter1138> | "The time unit used equals 185 engine ticks, or 2.5 TTD days" |
| 03:18 | <@peter1138> | so that's right |
| 03:19 | <Jerub> | On reflection, the 255 in the calculation will stop it from overflowing because it promotes the calculation to being an int calculation. |
| 03:20 | <@peter1138> | the other callback for cargos has var18 stuffed with ssaaaatt |
| 03:20 | <@peter1138> | tt = cargo days, aaaa = cargo waiting, ss = last vehicle speed |
| 03:22 | <Jerub> | peter1138: If it were me, I'd allow you to provide a void*, so I could use an arbitary struct... |
| 03:23 | <@peter1138> | not useful |
| 03:23 | <@peter1138> | not good practice either |
| 03:23 | <Jerub> | I have to run off, this has been fun :) |
| 03:23 | <@Rubidium> | Jerub: problem is GRFs don't know how to handle structs |
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| 03:48 | <CIA-1> | OpenTTD: rubidium * r9918 /trunk/src/ (engine.cpp newgrf.cpp): -Fix: the available roadtypes/railtypes were not updated on GRF updates. |
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| 06:02 | <CIA-1> | OpenTTD: rubidium * r9919 /trunk/src/ (autoreplace_gui.cpp roadveh_cmd.cpp tunnelbridge_cmd.cpp): -Codechange: prepare some more places for more road types. |
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| 06:54 | <Jerub> | so how do I design tracks and stations for superlong trains? |
| 06:54 | <Jerub> | do I just use superlong platforms? |
| 06:54 | <@peter1138> | use superlong tracks and platforms, clearly |
| 06:55 | <Brianetta> | Use long signal blocks |
| 06:56 | <Brianetta> | Avoid temptation to make signal blcoks shorter than trains, except near junctions |
| 06:56 | <@peter1138> | yes |
| 06:56 | <Brianetta> | You'll understand when you get a jam and need to reverse the buggers |
| 06:57 | <Jerub> | I'm only just starting to experiment with 20 carriage trains. |
| 06:58 | <@Rubidium> | that's not even near superlong |
| 06:58 | <Jerub> | yeah, that's why I was asking. |
| 06:59 | <Jerub> | so I really do have to make platforms the length of the train? |
| 07:00 | <@peter1138> | yes |
| 07:01 | <@Rubidium> | not necessarily, but trains longer than the platform make loading/unloading much slower |
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| 07:03 | <Noldo> | really? |
| 07:03 | <@peter1138> | http://web.ukonline.co.uk/berneyarms/html/berneyarms/railway/berney_summer_2001.htm |
| 07:03 | <@peter1138> | try unloading there ;p |
| 07:04 | <@Rubidium> | Berney Arms Grand Central Station ;) |
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| 07:13 | <Jerub> | So what's long? 60? 80? |
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| 07:14 | <Sleepie> | 64 is the max iirc |
| 07:14 | <Brianetta> | That's a small station. |
| 07:15 | <Brianetta> | A two-car DMU would have trouble unloading passengers. |
| 07:15 | <Brianetta> | I suppose there's the overgrown, not as tall part of the platform. |
| 07:19 | <Jerub> | hehehe |
| 07:19 | <Jerub> | I just made a station big enough to collect coal from two mines. |
| 07:19 | <Jerub> | and if it were a teensy bit larger, an oilfield :) |
| 07:21 | <skidd13> | Hi, as the current icons of my order gui are not so nice I drew a horde of new ones. Check them out: http://tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?t=31074&start=30 |
| 07:23 | <skidd13> | Any comments? |
| 07:25 | <kaan> | erhm, no comments, im quite daft when it comes to graphics :P |
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| 07:45 | <Noldo> | skidd13: how pro gpl are you? |
| 07:48 | <skidd13> | Noldo: why ya askin? I prefer CC (by-nc). |
| 07:52 | <Biff> | he probably asks because openttd is gpl :) |
| 07:53 | <Noldo> | or I would like it to be |
| 07:53 | <Noldo> | or anything dfsg-free is ok :) |
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| 07:55 | <skidd13> | Refering dfsg.. I'm using DEBIAN |
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| 07:56 | <CIA-1> | OpenTTD: miham * r9920 /trunk/src/lang/ (catalan.txt italian.txt romanian.txt): |
| 07:56 | <CIA-1> | OpenTTD: -Update: WebTranslator2 update to 2007-05-25 14:56:27 |
| 07:56 | <CIA-1> | OpenTTD: catalan - 34 fixed, 15 changed by arnaullv (49) |
| 07:56 | <CIA-1> | OpenTTD: italian - 2 fixed by lorenzodv (2) |
| 07:56 | <CIA-1> | OpenTTD: romanian - 12 fixed, 11 changed by CrystyB (23) |
| 07:58 | <Jerub> | do you ever use transfer stations? |
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| 08:04 | <elmex> | Jerub: i did |
| 08:04 | <elmex> | but transfer is a complete mess ;-/ |
| 08:05 | <elmex> | i once tried to setup a feeder network, but it wont work right |
| 08:05 | <elmex> | the cargo is just mixed up and it wont work somehow ;-/ |
| 08:05 | <Noldo> | it's just an accounting trick anyway |
| 08:06 | <elmex> | it would be a nice feature to be able to setup feeder networks |
| 08:06 | <elmex> | but atm you can't do A->D, B->D, C->D, D->Z with only coal |
| 08:07 | <elmex> | waiting for cargo packets :) |
| 08:07 | <Sionide> | elmex, yeah you can...? |
| 08:07 | <Sionide> | i've done it with wood in my latest game |
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| 08:07 | <elmex> | well, when station D also received coal from a local industry the income is mixed up |
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| 08:08 | <Sionide> | how so? |
| 08:08 | <skidd13> | Back again, damn thunderstorm! |
| 08:08 | <elmex> | the cargo is merged and the game can't keep track of which cargo comes from where |
| 08:08 | <Sionide> | so? |
| 08:08 | <elmex> | so you only get the income as if you would transport from D->Z |
| 08:08 | <Sionide> | no you don't |
| 08:09 | <Sionide> | what version are you running? |
| 08:09 | <elmex> | at least as far as i've tested it yesterday with current svn |
| 08:09 | <Sionide> | you saying all trains doing *->D, run at a loss? |
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| 08:09 | <elmex> | nope |
| 08:09 | <elmex> | well, yes, they do |
| 08:09 | <Noldo> | skidd13: the point is that I would like openttd to have dfsg-free graphics so it could be distributed in debian main |
| 08:09 | <elmex> | but not visibly |
| 08:09 | <Sionide> | not true! you get transfer income, it's yellow isn't it.. instead of green? |
| 08:09 | <Jerub> | this doesn't make any sense. |
| 08:10 | <elmex> | Sionide: the yellow one doesn't go to your bankaccount |
| 08:10 | <Jerub> | the SH'8P' is more expensive than the better-in-every-way UU'37' |
| 08:10 | <skidd13> | Noldo: Ah, so why ya askin me? |
| 08:11 | <@peter1138> | Jerub: so? it's also earlier... |
| 08:11 | <Sionide> | elmex, where does it go then? |
| 08:11 | <Noldo> | skidd13: because you seem to be somewhat capable artist |
| 08:11 | <elmex> | Sionide: nowhere |
| 08:11 | <Sionide> | profit this year: £85k, last year: £84k |
| 08:11 | <elmex> | Sionide: it's partially transfered to the train that picks up at D, but that train wont make any income |
| 08:12 | <Jerub> | peter1138: it's just weird, I expect upgrades to cost me money, not give me refunds. |
| 08:12 | <skidd13> | Noldo: Thanks, but I'm not the only one! ;) This would be a realy hard job, |
| 08:12 | <Sionide> | elmex, wtf! |
| 08:12 | <elmex> | Sionide: http://www.ta-sa.org/files/data/w.sav |
| 08:12 | <elmex> | r9894 |
| 08:13 | <elmex> | and tell me whether the train from the middle station makes income :) |
| 08:13 | <elmex> | it's just not working |
| 08:13 | <Sionide> | i'll show you |
| 08:13 | <Jerub> | I was looking at the code for calculating income today. |
| 08:13 | <Jerub> | I don't think it handles transfer stations very well, but it's very complicated and I don't understand it yet. |
| 08:14 | <elmex> | the problem is just that the game doesn't keep track of the sources of the cargo |
| 08:14 | <Sionide> | elmex, http://sionide.net/_/1.png shows the train having picked up from D (you can see some cargos from one station, some from another) |
| 08:15 | <Sionide> | http://sionide.net/_/2.png shows it having made £31k from that trip... |
| 08:15 | <Jerub> | yes, the profit for a transported cargo is calculated from the type of cargo, how long it was in transit, and the distance it was taken. |
| 08:15 | <elmex> | Sionide: right, nice eh? are you sure that one truck doesn't contain 15 tonnes from carlisle woods and 15 from carlisle heights? |
| 08:16 | [~] | Sionide watches the middle station |
| 08:16 | <Sionide> | yes, some of them do |
| 08:17 | <Sionide> | apparently, in the cargo info it shows the station with the most in that truck.. |
| 08:17 | <elmex> | Sionide: of course it makes 'some' income, but have you tested whether it really works? keep an eye on the trucks of how the trucks' contents changes it's destination when loading cargo |
| 08:18 | <elmex> | it's not easy to see, but it just doesn't work as expected |
| 08:18 | <elmex> | try my w.sav, train 2 _never_ makes any positive income |
| 08:18 | <Jerub> | yeah, this is consistent with what I was concerned with |
| 08:19 | <Sionide> | elmex, in my game, all trains make > 50k per year |
| 08:20 | <elmex> | Sionide: http://www.ta-sa.org/files/sc/ttd_transferfeedersystembug.jpg |
| 08:20 | <elmex> | http://www.ta-sa.org/files/sc/ttd_transferfeedersystembug2.jpg |
| 08:20 | <Sionide> | so what it should say X tonnes from station a and Y tonnes from station b |
| 08:20 | <elmex> | i don't care bout your game, i care about what i have observed in my test game |
| 08:20 | <elmex> | if it works for you it's great |
| 08:20 | <elmex> | then maybe only i'm having these issues |
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| 08:21 | <Jerub> | I think I basically established that transfers were good if you didn't care about the interim profits. |
| 08:21 | <elmex> | right |
| 08:21 | <Jerub> | just so you can get 4 nearby resources to pool so you can run big long distances with the cargo |
| 08:22 | <elmex> | yes |
| 08:22 | <elmex> | but it's still a mess ;-/ |
| 08:22 | <elmex> | that the feeder trains don't make negative income is just a hack |
| 08:22 | <Sionide> | there could be loads of other reasons why your train2 isn't making any money |
| 08:23 | <elmex> | Sionide: right, then tell me one :) i can give you the savegame and you can try out with a nighty |
| 08:24 | <elmex> | if the train 1 would go straight to the drop station everything would be fine |
| 08:24 | <elmex> | and if train2 would not load any transfered cargo |
| 08:25 | <Sionide> | you want train2 to *just* load local cargo? |
| 08:25 | <elmex> | i want train2 to load any cargo |
| 08:25 | <elmex> | that is available |
| 08:25 | <elmex> | and i want it to make profit |
| 08:25 | <skidd13> | I'm off. That damn thunderstorm is getting harder. |
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| 08:25 | <elmex> | http://www.ta-sa.org/files/data/w2.sav that one even runs with 0.5.1 even thought the problem isn't that visible there |
| 08:27 | <Sionide> | there isn't a r9894 linux nightly? |
| 08:27 | <elmex> | i've no idea, you can use an earlier one with w2.sav too |
| 08:28 | <elmex> | even with 0.5.1 train2 never makes any income. the income should at least be around the income of train1 |
| 08:29 | <Sionide> | i'm running it with svn now |
| 08:29 | <elmex> | yep |
| 08:29 | <Sionide> | pfft |
| 08:29 | <elmex> | that should even display 'Cost...' above train2 when it unloads at the dropoff station |
| 08:29 | <Sionide> | why should their incomes be the same |
| 08:29 | <Sionide> | look how far train1 carries coal, compared to train2 |
| 08:29 | <Sionide> | a fraction |
| 08:30 | <elmex> | right |
| 08:30 | <elmex> | so why would it make negative income? |
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| 08:33 | <elmex> | the miracle happens when you un-extend station Herzhaven heights to not get local coal |
| 08:33 | <elmex> | then it works :) |
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| 08:35 | <elmex> | if you extend herzhaven heights to the local coal mine the income will become messed up |
| 08:36 | <elmex> | forgot to extend it in that game |
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| 08:41 | <Sionide> | elmex, i'm working on it |
| 08:42 | <Sionide> | cos i have that exact set up in mine |
| 08:42 | <Sionide> | there's a local wood by the feeder station |
| 08:42 | <elmex> | yea |
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| 08:55 | <Sionide> | elmex, i'm gonna figure this.. i'm doing my own experiment on a new map.. |
| 08:55 | <Sionide> | show you in a sec |
| 08:55 | <elmex> | ok |
| 08:56 | <Sionide> | well maybe more than a sec |
| 08:56 | <Sionide> | how long you online for? :p |
| 08:57 | <elmex> | don't know... 10 hours... 20... |
| 08:57 | <elmex> | ;-) |
| 08:57 | <elmex> | but you should be able to confirm my observations with w2.sav already |
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| 08:59 | <Sionide> | elmex, yeah i confirm it, but i'm just testing something else now |
| 09:00 | <Sionide> | well, a similar idea anyway |
| 09:00 | <elmex> | ok |
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| 09:51 | <Sionide> | elmex, it's definitely because in your savegame, the power planet is so close to the mines... |
| 09:51 | <Sionide> | proof: http://sionide.net/_/ottd/feeder_test.sav |
| 09:51 | <Sionide> | r9884 if you need it |
| 09:54 | <Sionide> | all the trains which take the coal from the middle station, to the further away power station, make money |
| 09:54 | <Sionide> | the other one runs at a loss |
| 09:56 | <Sionide> | elmex? |
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| 10:31 | <elmex> | Sionide: sorry |
| 10:31 | <elmex> | sec |
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| 10:37 | <elmex> | Sionide: yea, that setup hides the problem well :-) |
| 10:37 | <CIA-1> | OpenTTD: rubidium * r9921 /trunk/src/road_cmd.cpp: -Fix (r9892): ownership wasn't properly propagated on owner changes. |
| 10:37 | <Sionide> | what's the problem? |
| 10:40 | <Sionide> | explain it further, with reference to that savegame |
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| 10:43 | <elmex> | Sionide: build another station next to winnigville mines that just transport coal from that mine to the destination station called 'wonnigville transfer' that one where the 'makes no money' train goes |
| 10:44 | <Sionide> | why? |
| 10:44 | <elmex> | it proves that the train that 'makes no money' should make money :) |
| 10:44 | <Sionide> | you'd never set it up like that though in a real game |
| 10:44 | <elmex> | of course the trains that have longer runs make money |
| 10:44 | <elmex> | because they make up for the loss from the transfer |
| 10:46 | <elmex> | the point my savegame tried to proof is that the transfer-logic and system is broken |
| 10:47 | <Sionide> | in a real game that situation wouldn't occur |
| 10:48 | <elmex> | so there is no bug because in a real game the bug isn't as visible? |
| 10:48 | <+glx> | it's a known fact that we need cargo packets to properly fix transfer |
| 10:49 | <+glx> | for now you should live with the limitations |
| 10:49 | <elmex> | yes |
| 10:49 | <elmex> | i'm not saying anything diff. :) |
| 10:49 | <CIA-1> | OpenTTD: rubidium * r9922 /trunk/src/yapf/yapf_ship.cpp: -Fix (r9914): [YAPF] null pointer dereference. |
| 10:50 | <elmex> | Sionide: also in your savegame the bug doesn't occur as much because only few of the cargo is actually mixed with the coal genereated by the local mine |
| 10:56 | <Sionide> | it's still to do with the distance though, right? |
| 10:58 | <elmex> | hm, i don't know exactly what they problem is, i guess the cargo's source isn't properlt recorded when cargo with diferent sources is mixed so that trains that don't make profit with the cargo by themselves don't make any profit |
| 10:59 | <+glx> | it isn't recorded because we need cargo packets for that |
| 10:59 | <elmex> | right |
| 11:02 | <Sacro> | !seen KUDr |
| 11:02 | <_42_> | Sacro, KUDr (KUDr@mazanec1.netbox.cz) was last seen quitting #openttd 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours 50 minutes ago (04.05. 19:12) stating "Read error: Connection reset by peer" after spending 8 hours 58 minutes there. |
| 11:02 | <Sacro> | hmm |
| 11:02 | <Sacro> | !seen KUDr_wrk |
| 11:02 | <_42_> | Sacro, please look a bit closer at the memberlist of this channel. |
| 11:03 | <Sacro> | stupid bot |
| 11:04 | <+glx> | @seen KUDr_wrk |
| 11:04 | <@DorpsGek> | glx: I have not seen KUDr_wrk. |
| 11:04 | <Sacro> | glx: not sure which is more useless |
| 11:04 | <+glx> | @seen Sacro |
| 11:04 | <@DorpsGek> | glx: Sacro was last seen in #openttd 13 seconds ago: <Sacro> glx: not sure which is more useless |
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| 11:05 | <+glx> | Sacro: DorpsGek is better but only if it was here when the searched people spoke for the last time |
| 11:08 | <Sacro> | mmm |
| 11:27 | <Sacro> | i need some YAPF info |
| 11:27 | <Sacro> | i don't understand it |
| 11:35 | <skidd13> | I created a poll about the icons for my new orders window patch. Everyone is invited to vote. http://tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?t=31074 |
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| 11:43 | <elmex> | skidd13: i like I or IX most ;-/ |
| 11:44 | <elmex> | i'm for IX |
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| 11:46 | <skidd13> | good choise. ;) |
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| 11:47 | <kaan> | hi all |
| 11:51 | <Thomas[NL]> | skidd13, how about just the plus, minus and arrow of IX ? (bigger of course) |
| 11:52 | <skidd13> | IMO there has to be the connection to the order-list |
| 12:07 | <KUDr_wrk> | Sacro: what exactly you need to know? |
| 12:08 | <Sacro> | KUDr_wrk: i have finished college till september, and i want to start the signalling rewrite, and i want to integrate it with YAPF |
| 12:09 | <KUDr_wrk> | how 'integrate'? |
| 12:09 | <Sacro> | well, the signalling system needs pathfinding |
| 12:09 | <KUDr_wrk> | like PBS(including reservations)? |
| 12:09 | <Sacro> | and i know yapf uses lookahead |
| 12:09 | <Sacro> | yes, PBS is one of the things |
| 12:10 | <KUDr_wrk> | signaling needs simple pathfinding but reservation system is much more complex than yapf itself |
| 12:10 | <KUDr_wrk> | YAPF is now stateless |
| 12:10 | <KUDr_wrk> | and signaling will be statefull |
| 12:11 | <Sacro> | oh? |
| 12:11 | <KUDr_wrk> | so the best would be to build signaling on top of YAPF interface |
| 12:11 | <@peter1138> | reservation is easy |
| 12:11 | <KUDr_wrk> | peter1138: for single train yes |
| 12:11 | <@peter1138> | yes ;) |
| 12:12 | <Sacro> | well i'd like to have PBS |
| 12:12 | <Sacro> | as well as yellow signals |
| 12:12 | <KUDr_wrk> | so if you need to extend YAPF interface to expose some internals, tell me. The same if you need YAPF to respect some rules that can be read from the map |
| 12:13 | <Sacro> | for when peter1138 does his realistic deceleration |
| 12:13 | <KUDr_wrk> | how will yellow signals influence YAPF? |
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| 12:13 | <Sacro> | if it has 2 lines to choose from, one yellow, one green, chose the green |
| 12:14 | <Sacro> | wheras it'd prefer yellow over red |
| 12:14 | <KUDr_wrk> | for PBS i need to know whther and what PBS states I should take into consideration |
| 12:15 | <KUDr_wrk> | hmm, so like half the penalty than for red? |
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| 12:17 | <elmex> | how can i change breakdowns in a game ona dedicated server? |
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| 12:22 | <Thomas[NL]> | http://wiki.openttd.org/index.php/Diff_custom |
| 12:22 | <elmex> | and if the game already runs? |
| 12:23 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | probably not at all |
| 12:23 | <elmex> | damn ;-/ |
| 12:23 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | save it, load as local game, change diff, save, restart server with new savegame |
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| 12:27 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | <Sacro> well, the signalling system needs pathfinding <- actually it does not, just run the pathfinder from the end of the reserved path (instead of from the engine position), then reserve the appropriate trackbit, repeat if reserved path is too short, or if path ends in a "complex" block (terminology as in celestars paper) |
| 12:28 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | if the engine leaves a tile, it just takes the next reserved trackbit, without pathfinder involved, then extends the reserved path like described above, if necessary |
| 12:28 | <Sacro> | Eddi|zuHause2: yes, but i think it will need accurate stopping distances |
| 12:28 | <Sacro> | so a train reserves a path longer than its stopping distance |
| 12:28 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | just make sure stopping distance < reserved path length |
| 12:29 | <Sacro> | indeed... |
| 12:29 | <Sacro> | so it keeps getting green signals |
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| 12:29 | <Sacro> | if it gets a yellow, it slows down |
| 12:29 | <@Rubidium> | the signal blocks just need to be long enough that when the train hits a yellow signal it can stop in time for the red signal |
| 12:29 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | you don't need yellow signals for that |
| 12:30 | <Sacro> | i want yellow signals :p |
| 12:30 | <@Rubidium> | and when the user doesn't, the trains crash :) |
| 12:30 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | just make the train slow down if the extension of the reserved path fails |
| 12:30 | <Sacro> | i want proper home and distants with semaphores |
| 12:30 | <Sacro> | Rubidium: i did consider this idea |
| 12:30 | <Sacro> | for people that leave 1 space between signals |
| 12:30 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | you can have yellow signals as visual effects and stuff |
| 12:30 | <Sacro> | Eddi|zuHause2: i think they should have some kind of effect on the trains |
| 12:31 | <Sacro> | make them slow down so the block has more chance to clear |
| 12:31 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | imho, short signal distance should reduce track max speed |
| 12:31 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | no matter if yellow or green |
| 12:31 | <Sacro> | yes... a train should not be able to increase its braking distance past the length of the blocks it has reserved |
| 12:31 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | so you have like "if signal distance = 3 tiles, max. 100km/h" |
| 12:32 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | but this will not be trivial |
| 12:33 | <Sacro> | i think it should be affected by weight of the train |
| 12:33 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | because you have to reserve this distance even over junctions |
| 12:33 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | but i think this gets too far |
| 12:33 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | you should take slower steps |
| 12:34 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | implement the reserved path, the braking distance thing afterwards, and yellow signals on top of it |
| 12:34 | <Sacro> | yeah, thats true |
| 12:35 | <Sacro> | its 3 different things at least |
| 12:35 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | allow for different signal systems, for easy, medum and hard difficulty |
| 12:35 | <Sacro> | should i leave the original default green... |
| 12:35 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | a propos medium, i knew i forgot something ... |
| 12:35 | <Sacro> | please don't talk in greek/latin, i get confused:p |
| 12:35 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | no, you can make everything default red |
| 12:36 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | but "easy" should not be affected by breaking distance and stuff |
| 12:36 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | only have like one signal type |
| 12:36 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | that automatically "does the right thing" |
| 12:36 | <Sacro> | what would "the right thing" be? |
| 12:36 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | "a propos" is french, i believe |
| 12:36 | <Sacro> | i am english! |
| 12:37 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | make trains not crash! :) |
| 12:37 | <Sacro> | ooh an sms |
| 12:37 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | ohh... rain... |
| 12:37 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | hard rain... |
| 12:38 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | and of course sattelite tv is affected... |
| 12:38 | <KUDr_wrk> | Sacro: Eddi|zuHause2 is right - you don't need changes in YAPF in order to implement PBS - and this should be your prefered way |
| 12:38 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | YAPF can later be tuned to give penalty for crossing a reserved path and stuff |
| 12:38 | <Sacro> | KUDr_wrk: what about for path following? |
| 12:39 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | like it gives penalty for red signals |
| 12:39 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | shouldn't be hard to adapt |
| 12:39 | <Sacro> | surely train requests route, yapf plans route, passes it to signaller for routing |
| 12:39 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | Sacro: you can read the reserved path from the map, does not need pathfinder |
| 12:40 | <Sacro> | so does YAPF return the reserved path to the train? or the map? or what? |
| 12:40 | <KUDr_wrk> | Sacro: 'path following'? |
| 12:40 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | no... follow me: |
| 12:40 | [~] | Sacro follows |
| 12:40 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | engine: leaves tile, has already a reserved path in front of it |
| 12:40 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | reads from the next tile, which track bit is reserved |
| 12:40 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | follows that trackbit |
| 12:41 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | then it checks if the reserved path is still "long enough" (function based on speed and weight) |
| 12:41 | <KUDr_wrk> | YAPF contains the path after pathfinding so you only need to call it directly not via wrapper functions that were made only because of C code |
| 12:41 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | (only needs "follow track" function) |
| 12:42 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | from the end of the reserved path, you then run YAPF, to get a new trackbit for expansion |
| 12:42 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | you then mark this trackbit as "reserved" |
| 12:42 | <KUDr_wrk> | yes |
| 12:42 | <KUDr_wrk> | agree with Eddi|zuHause2 |
| 12:42 | <Sacro> | i can follow that |
| 12:43 | <KUDr_wrk> | this will also ensure that the reserved path will not change so often |
| 12:43 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | in case you find an already reserved trackbit, revert to the last signal, and turn that signal red |
| 12:43 | <Sacro> | yes... |
| 12:43 | <Sacro> | and then the signal before goes yellow |
| 12:43 | <KUDr_wrk> | :) |
| 12:44 | <Sacro> | the train hits the yellow, slows down |
| 12:44 | <KUDr_wrk> | i would say 'forget yellow signals if you want to implement PBS' |
| 12:44 | <Sacro> | then either stops at the red, or it goes green, and it speeds back up again |
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| 12:44 | <Sacro> | KUDr_wrk: yeah, might be an idea to not have yellows in a pbs block |
| 12:44 | <KUDr_wrk> | they are 2 different things PBS and yellow signals |
| 12:45 | <Sacro> | yes |
| 12:45 | <@peter1138> | heh, http://fuzzle.org/o/petepbs.diff ;p |
| 12:45 | <@peter1138> | ^ wanked |
| 12:45 | <KUDr_wrk> | so they should be implemented separately |
| 12:45 | <@peter1138> | abuse of yapf too ;p |
| 12:45 | <@peter1138> | (and of course it doesn't work) |
| 12:45 | <Sacro> | peter1138: what have you done? :P |
| 12:47 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | one additional note... a signal should probably save wether the bock before or behind it is "simple", "complex" or whatever else celestar wanted to differentiate |
| 12:47 | <Sacro> | yes, thats true |
| 12:47 | <Sacro> | isn't simple only one exit? |
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| 12:49 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | i believe in celestars paper it was: "simple" = just straight track, "join" = only joins, "split" = only switches, "complex" everything else |
| 12:49 | <Sacro> | ahh |
| 12:50 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | but imho those are too many special cases |
| 12:50 | <Sacro> | in UK signalling, if its just straight track, it tends to be default green, unless the block is occupied |
| 12:50 | <Sacro> | current style |
| 12:50 | <hylje> | OMG! SIGNALS! |
| 12:51 | <Sacro> | hylje: ZOMGYEAH!!! |
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| 12:53 | <Sacro> | i don't follow most of the code though D: |
| 12:53 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | kay... i expect working signals not before 2010 then :p |
| 12:54 | <Sacro> | i will bundle them with DNF |
| 12:54 | <elmex> | lol |
| 12:55 | <elmex> | btw, has it been confirmed that DNF is just a marketing gag? |
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| 13:40 | <UndernotBuilder> | is possible to create a patch for chatting before joining? |
| 13:41 | <hylje> | what |
| 13:41 | <hylje> | yes |
| 13:41 | <+glx> | why? |
| 13:41 | <@Rubidium> | that would require a lot or reworking of the whole network system |
| 13:41 | <@Belugas> | it's called IRC ^_^ |
| 13:41 | <+glx> | you can spectate before join to play |
| 13:42 | <TrueBrain> | you can chat while joining in fact, it is just that the GUI doesn't support it :p |
| 13:43 | <UndernotBuilder> | but there isn't a irc channel per server... |
| 13:43 | <@Rubidium> | that's because lots of the server admins fail in making one |
| 13:43 | <hylje> | failure |
| 13:44 | <UndernotBuilder> | and I can't use the say command while I am connecting |
| 13:46 | <UndernotBuilder> | also spectator mode is bad with big maps |
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| 14:26 | <XeryusTC> | UndernotBuilder: get autopilot and make a bridge... |
| 14:28 | <hylje> | .. and get over it |
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| 14:34 | <Wolf01> | hello |
| 14:37 | |-| | helb [~helb@84.244.90.1 |
