| --- | Log | opened Wed May 16 00:00:26 2007 |
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| 01:55 | <independence> | hello |
| 01:55 | <independence> | is there some way I can get the sourcecode that's used to generate this: http://www.openttd.org/server_detail.php |
| 01:57 | <@Rubidium> | svn://svn.openttd.org/website and svn://svn.openttd.org/branches/masterserver_updater |
| 01:57 | <independence> | oh, thanks! |
| 01:57 | <independence> | can I browse the svn repository via http someplace? |
| 01:58 | <@Rubidium> | nope, we had trac but it used way too many resource for some (totally) unknown reason |
| 02:05 | <boekabart> | independence: if you're on Windows, you can use TortoiseSVN to browse the repository. |
| 02:06 | <Phazorx> | if (CHANCE16I(20 + (i->pct_transported[j] * 20 >> 8), 1024, r >> 16)) |
| 02:06 | <Phazorx> | new_prod += ((RandomRange(50) + 10) * old_prod) >> 8; |
| 02:06 | <Phazorx> | does that mean with increase of pct_transported chance increases? |
| 02:07 | <Phazorx> | that *20 >> 8 is a bit confusing since i dont recall oreder it will be executed in cpp |
| 02:08 | <@Rubidium> | first mulitplication, then bitwise shifts |
| 02:09 | <independence> | Rubidium: masterserver_updater get's info from the masterserver and puts it into a mysql table for the php-script to read or how does it work? |
| 02:09 | <independence> | I want to make something that queries my server and checks how many players are online, and then puts that on my website |
| 02:09 | <@peter1138> | Phazorx: yes |
| 02:10 | <Phazorx> | peter1138: somehow i fail to see that working over long period of time :/ |
| 02:10 | <Phazorx> | i mean ingame |
| 02:11 | <@Rubidium> | masterserver_update are two different things; one side is the masterserver that gets queries etc. from the game itself (server online, server offline, what servers are there). The updater checks (regularly) whether the servers are still online and updates the statistics of the servers (this data is shown on the website). |
| 02:11 | |-| | maddy [~maddy@88-136-70-61.adslgp.cegetel.net] has joined #openttd |
| 02:12 | <@Rubidium> | so what you probably want is a modified updater which does not remove the server from the database when it goes offline, because then it isn't added again because you should register to the 'real' masterserver otherwise noone can find you |
| 02:15 | <@peter1138> | Phazorx: basically it ranges from 1:50 to 1:25 chance. still low. |
| 02:16 | <@peter1138> | Phazorx: decrementing is fixed at 1:50 |
| 02:16 | <@peter1138> | roughly |
| 02:16 | <@peter1138> | 1:51.2 -> 1:26.2564 ... heh |
| 02:16 | <Phazorx> | peter if my math is not failimg me miserably it does not get even close to 1:25 |
| 02:16 | <independence> | What I'd like is to write something in python to just query the server and get the number of clients that are online, preferrably without running any daemon or so :) |
| 02:16 | <Phazorx> | 100*20/256 ~ 8 |
| 02:17 | <Phazorx> | so with 0 it is 20 + 0, with 100 it is ~28 |
| 02:17 | <Phazorx> | 28/1024 isnt 1.25 :/ |
| 02:17 | <@peter1138> | if (r <= (65536 * (20 + (255 * 20) / 256) / 1024)) |
| 02:18 | <Phazorx> | hmm... i gusee i dont know how chance16i works in 1st place |
| 02:18 | <@peter1138> | #define CHANCE16I(a, b, v) ((uint16)(v) <= (uint16)((65536 * (a)) / (b))) |
| 02:18 | <Phazorx> | second param is not scale relative to 12st? |
| 02:18 | <@Rubidium> | independence: then take a look at trunk/src/network/core/udp.[ch]pp |
| 02:19 | <Phazorx> | and i gues it was wrong for me to assume that pct+* is actually percent |
| 02:20 | <Phazorx> | now i see 1:25, thanks |
| 02:21 | <@peter1138> | that's for smooth economy, of course |
| 02:21 | <Phazorx> | yeah, that's what i am questioning |
| 02:21 | <Phazorx> | coopers have some weird rule of keeping rating between 65 and 75 i was trying to come to bottom of that |
| 02:22 | <Phazorx> | i was usualy making sure it is as high as possible |
| 02:22 | <@peter1138> | the code doesn't agree with them, heh |
| 02:22 | <Phazorx> | but in reality neither of aproaches guarantiees anything even over very long time |
| 02:22 | <Phazorx> | peter1138: reality doesnt agree with code either btw :) |
| 02:23 | <Phazorx> | for any used industry there should be a steady increase over 200 years of gametime |
| 02:24 | <Phazorx> | actually i take that back |
| 02:24 | <Phazorx> | changes arent relative |
| 02:24 | <@peter1138> | the changes are random too, yes |
| 02:24 | <@peter1138> | so even if it goes up, it may only go up a tiny bit |
| 02:24 | <Phazorx> | random but i meant scale of changes isnot same even if chances are |
| 02:25 | <Phazorx> | as in if old is 100 and it decreases 10 % it is 90 now |
| 02:25 | <Phazorx> | and if next month it increases 10% it is 99 |
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| 02:25 | <@peter1138> | yes |
| 02:26 | <Phazorx> | a bit unfair :) |
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| 02:41 | <boekabart> | Actually I think if those increases are truly random by percentage, Pharzox' observation would lead to a decrease in production on average, over time. |
| 02:48 | <independence> | what are the dependencies for building openttd dedicated server on linux? |
| 02:49 | <boekabart> | independence: http://www.openttd.org/dev.php |
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| 02:51 | <independence> | I need sdl for dedicated server also? |
| 02:52 | <@blathijs> | don't think so |
| 02:52 | <@blathijs> | The graphics files are needed, though |
| 02:56 | <TrueBrain> | morning all |
| 02:56 | <boekabart> | morning TrueBrain |
| 02:59 | <@peter1138> | hi |
| 02:59 | <@peter1138> | i'm at work now :( |
| 03:01 | <boekabart> | sometimes we do things just because we need the money |
| 03:01 | <TrueBrain> | poor thing |
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| 03:15 | <independence> | ===> Linking openttd |
| 03:15 | <independence> | fontcache.o: In function `LoadFreeTypeFont': |
| 03:15 | <independence> | fontcache.c:(.text+0x9a4): undefined reference to `FcFini' |
| 03:15 | <independence> | anyone knows what could be wrong? |
| 03:15 | <@Rubidium> | yes |
| 03:15 | <@Rubidium> | an (too) old version of libfontconfig |
| 03:16 | <boekabart> | a(n) (too) old.. actually ;) |
| 03:16 | <@Rubidium> | boekabart: a(n too) old... |
| 03:17 | <boekabart> | Rubidium: no, a[n | too] old... |
| 03:17 | <independence> | whoever wrote the .ebuild for gentoo forgot about fontconfig I suppose, it's not in the deps for the package :) |
| 03:17 | <@Rubidium> | doh ;) |
| 03:18 | <TrueBrain> | make a bug-report |
| 03:18 | <TrueBrain> | (in their bug-tracker) |
| 03:20 | <TrueBrain> | 'git' can drive me crazy :( |
| 03:20 | <TrueBrain> | more: git-svn can drive me crazy :p |
| 03:21 | <CIA-1> | OpenTTD: rubidium * r9855 /trunk/src/command.cpp: -Fix: [FS#779] do not perform any commands on MP_VOID tiles. |
| 03:21 | <CIA-1> | OpenTTD: rubidium * r9856 /branches/0.5/command.c: |
| 03:21 | <CIA-1> | OpenTTD: [0.5] -Backport from trunk (r9855): |
| 03:21 | <CIA-1> | OpenTTD: - Fix: Do not perform any commands on MP_VOID tiles [FS#779] (r9855) |
| 03:21 | <@Rubidium> | oh oh... they've missed some commit mails |
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| 03:23 | <@peter1138> | hmm/ |
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| 03:30 | <TrueBrain> | I believe I now have a nice git2svn portal |
| 03:30 | <TrueBrain> | and a working git in general |
| 03:30 | <TrueBrain> | amazing... |
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| 03:41 | <peterbrett> | TrueBrain: That is full of win. |
| 03:42 | <peterbrett> | May I destruction test it? |
| 03:42 | <peterbrett> | (later, because I have to go to lectures now...) |
| 03:43 | <Phazorx> | boekabart: actually if you just leave the game running forever - all come to minimal output |
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| 03:43 | |-| | mode/#openttd [+v tokai] by ChanServ |
| 03:44 | <Phazorx> | and i think changes in production should be made a bit more rewarding to used industriy and perhaps less random |
| 03:44 | <@peter1138> | remember you are transporting cargo, not affecting supply & demand |
| 03:45 | <Phazorx> | i'm thinking more from gameplay point of view rather than reality |
| 03:46 | <Phazorx> | targete goods and flexible transport fees would make a whole different game |
| 03:47 | <boekabart> | peter1138: you ARE affecting it anyway: remember the closures due to supply problems? |
| 03:47 | <@peter1138> | true :p |
| 03:47 | <boekabart> | anyway, if you're not affecting it, average production should stay the same or grow over time, not get less |
| 03:48 | <Phazorx> | i was talking about 1st tier only |
| 03:48 | <boekabart> | actually it should grow a lot, 1:1 with country population size |
| 03:49 | <Phazorx> | however it would be nice if some things would evolve in similar fasion to oil well/rigs |
| 03:49 | <boekabart> | how do they? |
| 03:49 | <Phazorx> | one is available only till certain date and one only after |
| 03:49 | <Phazorx> | i'm thinking cola age should end soon and be replaed by uranium for example |
| 03:50 | <Phazorx> | so power plant would go nuclear |
| 03:50 | <boekabart> | cola age, cool |
| 03:50 | <boekabart> | and it would output nuclear waste that should be taken to sellafield ;) |
| 03:50 | <Phazorx> | yup 2 tiers |
| 03:50 | <Phazorx> | more tiers = more fun imo |
| 03:51 | <@peter1138> | basically, increasing production just because you're transporting everything makes it too easy ;p |
| 03:51 | <Ailure> | hmm |
| 03:51 | <@peter1138> | up and up and away |
| 03:51 | <Phazorx> | and, this is something that is easy to do and i really like - a factory should have different ratio depending on how many different cargo types it takes |
| 03:51 | <Ailure> | there's one thing that I wondered about TTD |
| 03:51 | <boekabart> | Pharzorx: you do know that we still dig up coal nowadays, right? For both making power and melting metal. |
| 03:51 | <Ailure> | is paper really transported that way? D: |
| 03:52 | <Phazorx> | boekabart: i do know that, however it is not most common way to produce energy now |
| 03:52 | <boekabart> | peter1138: i'm just saying that on average, the random fluctuation should tend towards growing a certain %% per year, not go lower |
| 03:52 | <boekabart> | Pharzorx: Depends on the country. In the US and France, it isn't. In the Netherlands, it is. |
| 03:53 | <boekabart> | Pharzorx: your nick is too hard to type. |
| 03:53 | <Phazorx> | boekabart: well what i was implying - technology and resource consumption changes |
| 03:53 | <Phazorx> | boa Pha<tab> |
| 03:53 | <boekabart> | OMFG!!! |
| 03:53 | <boekabart> | did not know that. |
| 03:53 | <Phazorx> | ;o) |
| 03:54 | <boekabart> | every client does that? |
| 03:54 | <@peter1138> | err.... most |
| 03:54 | <Phazorx> | anyway - once network is setup there is not much to do aside of adding trains |
| 03:54 | <Phazorx> | boekabart: you gotta be kidding me... |
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| 03:55 | <boekabart> | really, didn't. Probably my last client (AdiIRC) didn't... now I'm using Pidgin |
| 03:55 | <Phazorx> | well there you are :) |
| 03:55 | <@peter1138> | wtf, gaim is now pidgin? |
| 03:55 | <@peter1138> | how lame |
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| 03:56 | <Phazorx> | and industries - it would give more variety to game if types of cargo change or at least price for cargo changes |
| 03:56 | <@peter1138> | Phazorx: probably possible with newindustries/newcargos |
| 03:56 | <Phazorx> | i can see how coal is lucrative in steam age... but then it is oil... |
| 03:56 | <Phazorx> | peter1138: would be nice |
| 03:56 | <Ailure> | in the world of TT |
| 03:56 | <Ailure> | demand is infinite |
| 03:56 | <Ailure> | supply is limited |
| 03:56 | <@peter1138> | i.e. make newgrfs instead of messing with the default game ;) |
| 03:56 | <Phazorx> | however that changes gameplay quite a bit some migth not like that |
| 03:57 | <Ailure> | Some infamous player transported all his trains to his company HQ |
| 03:57 | <Ailure> | that was in the corner of the map |
| 03:57 | <Phazorx> | peter1138: something that i want in default is growth of output of factory proportional not only to raw 1st tier but also types |
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| 03:57 | <Phazorx> | like 1:1 for each kidna if that is only one within last month |
| 03:57 | <boekabart> | Ailure: company headquarters accept what? |
| 03:58 | <Phazorx> | but if you deliver 2 kinda you get bonsu 10%, 3 kinda - 30 |
| 03:58 | <Ailure> | passengers |
| 03:58 | <Ailure> | mail |
| 03:58 | <Ailure> | it was a one-way ride too |
| 03:58 | <Ailure> | so he kept dumping passengers and mail at the HQ :P |
| 03:58 | <boekabart> | until it exploded? |
| 03:59 | <Ailure> | while the passenger/mail production is relativly non-existant |
| 03:59 | <Phazorx> | i knoew it generates but didnt know it accepts as well |
| 03:59 | <boekabart> | hm, passenger destinations will solve that I hope :) |
| 03:59 | <Ailure> | compared to the amount it accepts |
| 04:00 | <Ailure> | some kind of demand system might help too |
| 04:00 | <boekabart> | first we need custom bridgeheads and diagonal bridges :) |
| 04:00 | <Ailure> | mostly so players can't do insane dropoffs like that :p |
| 04:00 | <Ailure> | Some newIndustries does this already infact |
| 04:00 | <@peter1138> | do |
| 04:01 | <Ailure> | They stock cargo |
| 04:01 | <Ailure> | and if the stock get's full, the industry stops accepting the cargo |
| 04:01 | <boekabart> | would be goo, imagine you'll have your goods-from-factory trains running around a number of cities until empty (cities accept only limited amount per month) |
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| 04:01 | <kaan> | goodmorning :) |
| 04:02 | <boekabart> | basically the same could apply for goods-accepting building right, they stock a limited amount, and consume so-much per month/tileLoop |
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| 04:02 | <boekabart> | i'm pretty sure there's actually room for that in the current map array, right? |
| 04:03 | <boekabart> | that would make goods runs so much more realistic.... |
| 04:04 | <boekabart> | and much more interesting |
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| 04:04 | <TheJosh> | Hey all |
| 04:05 | <boekabart> | we'd need another order type: go there if not empty (actually, that could be done by not going somewhere if UNLOAD is set and train==empty |
| 04:05 | <TheJosh> | what about 'go non-stop once full' |
| 04:06 | <TheJosh> | or go via once full |
| 04:06 | <boekabart> | once not empty |
| 04:06 | <TheJosh> | same thing |
| 04:06 | <boekabart> | i'm just saying... would be a good feature anyway, to not-go somewhere if it's just to unload and train is empty |
| 04:07 | <TheJosh> | for loops with a piece going off that goes to the unload point direct, and a waypoint so it goes to one if theres room or the other if its full |
| 04:07 | <@peter1138> | for buildings, no room in the map array |
| 04:07 | <@peter1138> | for industries and towns it could be done easily |
| 04:07 | <boekabart> | peter1138: How come there's no room in the map array for buildings, what do the need to much data for? |
| 04:07 | <TheJosh> | imagine a system where orders could be fully programmed with if statements and stuff |
| 04:07 | [~] | TheJosh thinks about making a patch |
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| 04:08 | <boekabart> | TheJosh: squirrel ;) |
| 04:08 | <TheJosh> | if (condition) then |
| 04:08 | <TheJosh> | <orders> |
| 04:08 | <TheJosh> | else |
| 04:08 | <TheJosh> | <orders> |
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| 04:08 | [~] | TheJosh thinks |
| 04:08 | <@peter1138> | boekabart: heh, newhouses |
| 04:09 | <@peter1138> | animation stages and the like |
| 04:09 | <@peter1138> | most aren't animated but that's besides the point |
| 04:12 | <TheJosh> | i also think we need a system where you can say (orders): |
| 04:12 | <TheJosh> | go to <station> |
| 04:12 | <TheJosh> | at station: load 50% coal |
| 04:12 | <TheJosh> | load 20% iron ore |
| 04:12 | <TheJosh> | load/unload passengers |
| 04:13 | <TheJosh> | i have some really complex ideas for stations. ill put togehter a example screenshot of my ideas... |
| 04:14 | <Brianetta> | Better than a screenshot would be a design doc |
| 04:14 | <Brianetta> | show how you expect everything to function |
| 04:15 | <Brianetta> | let the devs see how that could work with the existing code |
| 04:16 | <boekabart> | peter1138: map.m7 is also taken up by newhouses already? |
| 04:16 | <@peter1138> | of course, that's why it was added |
| 04:16 | <boekabart> | ok |
| 04:16 | <TheJosh> | yeah. i should of gotten pre-approval before i made my 'found a town' patch |
| 04:16 | <boekabart> | but... per town is weird, since acceptance of goods @ a station is building-based right? |
| 04:16 | <TheJosh> | now i think the devs dont want it because it will stuff up the game balance or soemthing |
| 04:18 | <kaan> | TheJosh: making a patch just because you feel like it is a perfectly valid reason. |
| 04:19 | <boekabart> | ... but not every idea can make it into the game, it'd become a mess |
| 04:19 | <TheJosh> | kann: but if it gets into trunk its sooo much better. |
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| 04:20 | <@peter1138> | no approval is needed, heh |
| 04:20 | <@peter1138> | just don't make things too big |
| 04:20 | <kaan> | TheJosh: you meant to say that it is good for your ego, right? ;) |
| 04:20 | <@peter1138> | like my original diagonal tracks under bridges patch |
| 04:20 | <@peter1138> | and the subsidiaries patch |
| 04:21 | <TheJosh> | kann: no its not that |
| 04:21 | <TheJosh> | kann: but if 3 people play it, whats the point? |
| 04:22 | <boekabart> | TheJosh: YOU play it, YOU enjoy it, that's the main point. Every other person is a bonus right? |
| 04:22 | <TheJosh> | i never have enough money to found a town |
| 04:22 | <kaan> | TheJosh: if noone like a bizarre peice of art and its isnt shown in galleries, will it make the artist less of an artist? |
| 04:23 | <boekabart> | getting it in trunk is mainly ego, i think, plus you won't have to worry about maintaining your patch anymore... which actually might be the biggest plus. |
| 04:24 | <TheJosh> | i would just like to see others enjoy it. meh, i dont really mind, people already enjoy the 'soem towns are larger when the game starts' patch |
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| 04:24 | <kaan> | well i can understand that point of view |
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| 04:27 | <kaan> | when i was deciding on if i should go ahead and make bottd the major points were that it would be useful for the community as a whole and that people would use it ... that and i would like to be able to play specific builds online with my brother who dont know anything about compiling ;) |
| 04:28 | <TheJosh> | bottd being BuildOTTD? |
| 04:29 | <kaan> | yes :) |
| 04:29 | <TheJosh> | good tool |
| 04:29 | <TheJosh> | im on linux, so no use for me |
| 04:29 | <kaan> | well, its useful for its purpose |
| 04:29 | <TheJosh> | do you know c++ ?? |
| 04:29 | <kaan> | i had a single semester course in it back in 2002 :P |
| 04:30 | <TheJosh> | enough to port the app to c++/gtk2 for cross-platform support (just an idea) |
| 04:31 | <kaan> | I thought a lot about that when i was designing it ... my reasoning is that it is just soooo much easyer to make a perl script on linux than to make this app for it |
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| 04:31 | <kaan> | it would be a rewrite anyway |
| 04:32 | <TheJosh> | of course |
| 04:32 | <kaan> | and on top of that i cant imagine how it would be for mac |
| 04:32 | <TheJosh> | although gtk is broader than linux |
| 04:32 | <@Rubidium> | kaan: assume that it's the same as for unix |
| 04:32 | <TheJosh> | gtk in windows/linux and osx |
| 04:32 | <kaan> | problem is that it isnt |
| 04:32 | <TheJosh> | you would also need some platform-specific code |
| 04:33 | <TheJosh> | too hard? good point |
| 04:33 | <kaan> | well if you look at the code base you will discover that most code in there is platform specific |
| 04:33 | <@Rubidium> | just use the generic unix approach: build a console version that does everything and then make a simple graphical shell around that |
| 04:34 | <kaan> | yes, and that console version would be a bash script going "./configure && make" |
| 04:34 | <kaan> | ok thats a it simplistic |
| 04:34 | <@Rubidium> | kaan: no, it would revert and patch too |
| 04:35 | <kaan> | but my point is that bottd is made for widows filesystem with mingw in it, not at all like linux where you can toss most of those limitations and just make a simple script |
| 04:35 | <@Rubidium> | kaan: don't forget to revert *and* remove files that aren't in svn when applying a new patch |
| 04:36 | <@Rubidium> | otherwise when you apply the same patch once again, the new files (that aren't in svn) will contain the code twice making compilation fail |
| 04:38 | <kaan> | Rubidium: im working on revert, its on my todo list :) those errors are too strange for the unsuspecting user and a design goal was to make it easy for the playtester without much knowledge |
| 04:38 | <@peter1138> | not for desolator to build binaries all the time? |
| 04:38 | <@peter1138> | hmm |
| 04:39 | <kaan> | well, maybe he could do it anyway ;) |
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| 04:40 | <kaan> | one of my design assumptions was that people on linux was probably way to skilled to need bottd has been punctured though, i have seen a few linux users who could have used a simple entrypoint |
| 04:43 | <TheJosh> | meh im off |
| 04:43 | <TheJosh> | cya all round |
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| 04:43 | <kaan> | ok, bye :) |
| 04:44 | <Brianetta> | Some Linux users don't even have a compiler installed |
| 04:44 | <Brianetta> | It's no longer standard on many distributions |
| 04:44 | <Brianetta> | Now Linux is starting to reach mainstream, there are more clueless users, too |
| 04:45 | <kaan> | well thats where i failed to know reality, back in 1999 when i first tried linux it was its prime feature for me :) |
| 04:46 | <Ammller> | ottd is still the only thing I have compiled on my linux box |
| 04:47 | <kaan> | Ammller: if you want to go have an initiation rite then i can reccomend kompiling a new kernel custom build for your hardware :) |
| 04:48 | <@peter1138> | kompiling :D |
| 04:48 | <kaan> | sorry :P |
| 04:48 | <@Rubidium> | ooh, kde ;) |
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| 04:51 | <Ammller> | kaan: I belong to the category Brianetta introduced... |
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| 04:51 | <Brianetta> | ? |
| 04:52 | <Brianetta> | Don't blame me |
| 04:52 | <Ammller> | clueless users |
| 04:52 | <kaan> | hardly, you did after all compile ottd on your own :) |
| 04:52 | <Brianetta> | I didn't introduce it. I am just a witness. |
| 04:52 | <Ammller> | I use openoffice more than the compiler |
| 04:52 | <Brianetta> | Linux doesn't give me that smug, elitist feeling any more ): |
| 04:52 | <kaan> | so do i |
| 04:52 | <Brianetta> | Back in the early nineties it did |
| 04:53 | <Ammller> | and sadly sometimes, I need Virtualbox for MS Access |
| 04:54 | <kaan> | i like both linux and windows, makes me want to go get a mac mini for some reason |
| 04:56 | <Brianetta> | I dislike Windows |
| 04:56 | <kaan> | now i have to ask you why :P |
| 04:56 | <kaan> | why? |
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| 04:56 | <Brianetta> | I upgraded from DOS to Linux a long time ago |
| 04:56 | <Brianetta> | Windows has never been as useable for me |
| 04:56 | <Brianetta> | You can't even have a decent sloppy focus |
| 04:56 | <Brianetta> | If you want to use a window, Windows forces it to the top |
| 04:57 | <Brianetta> | I remember trying the Windows 95 beta |
| 04:57 | <Brianetta> | but it wasn't as good as my X workstation with FVWM |
| 04:57 | <@Rubidium> | Windows is basically the equivalent to the unix kernel (conceptually). For windows you need to install like a thousand applications to become really useful |
| 04:57 | <Brianetta> | which multitasked better |
| 04:57 | <Brianetta> | Command line multitasking is something I miss on Windows |
| 04:58 | <@Rubidium> | and for Windows you do not have the choice to not have a GUI |
| 04:58 | <Brianetta> | being able to run a job, and kick it into the background if it's taking a while |
| 04:58 | <Brianetta> | in Windows I have to stat a new cmd.exe, and do without the command history |
| 04:58 | <boekabart> | Brianetta: That's what 4nt is for |
| 04:58 | <kaan> | command line multitasking in dos would have been useful, in windows not so much |
| 04:58 | <Brianetta> | boekabart: I used 4dos on DOS |
| 04:58 | <Brianetta> | but third party apps have one huge problem |
| 04:58 | <Brianetta> | They're not ubiquitous |
| 04:59 | [~] | boekabart is looking that word up in the dictionary |
| 04:59 | <Brianetta> | You go to sort out some machine, and it won't have all your favourite third party toys |
| 04:59 | <kaan> | Brianetta: thats true on every platform |
| 05:00 | <kaan> | although i do miss vi a lot on win |
| 05:00 | <Brianetta> | kaan: Yes - which is why a system which includes good design as standard is my favourite. |
| 05:00 | <Brianetta> | Every Unix shell supports Ctrl-Z and then bg to give you the prompt back |
| 05:01 | <kaan> | we can easily agree that unix/linux have the better systems design of the two |
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| 05:02 | <kaan> | but at least for now, windows more generally has the better user experience |
| 05:02 | <kaan> | both are important |
| 05:03 | <Ammller> | kaan: you mean, they have the better marketing? |
| 05:04 | <kaan> | Ammller: no i mean that they windows has the best overall userfriendlyness |
| 05:04 | <@Rubidium> | kaan: for me windows' user experience isn't really that great |
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| 05:05 | <kaan> | well, its not pretty if that is what you mean |
| 05:05 | <Ammller> | wll, that is very subjective |
| 05:05 | <kaan> | its not working perfectly eighter |
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| 05:06 | <TheMask96> | !logs |
| 05:06 | <SpComb> | Logs: http://zapotek.paivola.fi/~terom/logs/openttd |
| 05:06 | <Ammller> | I have bought a new Dell 6400, cleared everything, installed vista and suse |
| 05:07 | <kaan> | but when the scores is counted most people like windows better: and hold your horses here, im not talking sales or install base, im talking what i have seen around and what i personally think about both OS |
| 05:07 | <@Rubidium> | kaan: most of the install base is due to ignorance |
| 05:07 | <Ammller> | suse is running without any additional work, im afraid to every bring vista running with wlan etc. |
| 05:07 | [~] | peter1138 ponders if he could run his windows apps in a vm these days |
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| 05:07 | <@peter1138> | visual studio & outlook, mostly |
| 05:08 | <kaan> | Rubidium: i agree, but that doesnt alter my argument one bit |
| 05:10 | <@Rubidium> | kaan: If you would pay $huge amount so all major computer manufacturers only deliver their hardware with Debian, I guess Debian becomes the "best" OS |
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| 05:11 | <kaan> | Rubidium: in a real world scenario that might be true, but that doesnt alter my opninion that windows has the better user overall user experience |
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| 05:12 | <@Rubidium> | kaan: and that's because everybody thinks linux is not used widely enough to develop for |
| 05:12 | <boekabart> | kaan: Rubidium: please stop this discussion now |
| 05:13 | <kaan> | are you sure Rubidium? i would have said it was because the userinterface is well thought through |
| 05:14 | <kaan> | ok, ill stop, its not like im gaining anything by this futile attempt to explain my views ;) |
| 05:15 | <@Rubidium> | http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2006/11/21.html and http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/APIWar.html (I kinda agree with him) |
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| 05:42 | <geoffk> | peter1138, its possible to run windows vm's on Xen and vmware if your cpu supports VT technology, i never tried it though |
| 05:43 | <kaan> | well i have read those links now, and i happen to agree on most points made. But that still doesnt change anything in respect to the overall user experience being better on windows :P |
| 05:43 | <boekabart> | oh stop it :) |
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| 06:41 | <SpComb> | silly bug things |
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| 07:28 | <boekabart> | does signal gui + autocomplete have any chance of getting included in trunk? |
| 07:30 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | probably not in combination... |
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| 07:34 | <@peter1138> | hmm |
| 07:34 | <@peter1138> | unstable shit :p |
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| 08:26 | <boekabar1> | !logs |
| 08:26 | <SpComb> | Logs: http://zapotek.paivola.fi/~terom/logs/openttd |
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| 09:21 | <SpComb> | seems to be pretty popular, that !logs thing |
| 09:22 | <@Belugas> | yeah... more popular than the bookmark thing ;) |
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| 09:23 | <peterbrett> | That's pretty cool |
| 09:23 | <peterbrett> | I like |
| 09:24 | <SpComb> | what is pretty cool? The !logs thing? Is not, it's ugly |
| 09:25 | <@peter1138> | it's better than the new one ;p |
| 09:25 | <SpComb> | is not |
| 09:25 | <@peter1138> | less crap around it |
| 09:25 | <SpComb> | fixed at GMT+3! No automatic polling! Looks ugly! |
| 09:25 | <SpComb> | you mean the grey background? |
| 09:25 | <@peter1138> | no, i mean the junk that takes up room |
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| 09:26 | <SpComb> | anyways, http://zapotekii.paivola.fi:8185/ |
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| 09:26 | <@peter1138> | let's make it a tiny window with a scrollbar :/ |
| 09:27 | <SpComb> | it's larger than the old one! Well, perhaps less wide, but as tall |
| 09:27 | <peterbrett> | SpComb: Broken in Konqueror |
| 09:27 | <SpComb> | and you can make it taller (currently only in one direction) |
| 09:27 | <SpComb> | peterbrett: broken in what way? I don't have konqueror available, I've only tested on Firefox 2.0 |
| 09:28 | <peterbrett> | New text appears, but on the same line as the last thing said, so the frame gets wider and wider |
| 09:28 | <SpComb> | and, of course, the layout of the page is changeable |
| 09:28 | <SpComb> | hmm |
| 09:28 | <peterbrett> | And Konqueror passes ACID2, so I suspect an ECMAScript problem. |
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| 09:29 | <SpComb> | well, sounds like more of a HTML issue |
| 09:30 | <SpComb> | I think sticking each line into their own element (possibly even a div, scrapping the pre) would probably help with that |
| 09:31 | <peterbrett> | you need something with display:block |
| 09:31 | <peterbrett> | So yeah, div would do it |
| 09:31 | <SpComb> | currently I'm just very careful with my newlines |
| 09:32 | <SpComb> | but aside from that, isn't it nice and spiffy? :P |
| 09:32 | <SpComb> | I quite like the layout myself, but I guess not everyone likes the same thing |
| 09:32 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | i agree with peter1138. leave out the stuff on the left, maybe make it at the top, or a separate menu page |
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| 09:33 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | it takes up precious room for no reason |
| 09:34 | <SpComb> | a seperate menu page for the channel selection? :o |
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| 09:34 | <SpComb> | and sticking a two-level tree horizontally...? |
| 09:35 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | why the need for a tree? |
| 09:35 | <SpComb> | network/channel |
| 09:35 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | why have the "tree" fully visible at all times? |
| 09:36 | <SpComb> | have it drop down from a button in the top nav menu? That might work |
| 09:37 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | well, it would also work if you just have a line for each tree level, and only have one branch of the tree open at the same time, like if you click on "oftc" on the first line, the channels on oftc show up in the second line |
| 09:41 | <SpComb> | then I'd need to somehow fit in three lines (or figure out some way to have them appear, ugh, javascript navigation) |
| 09:42 | <@peter1138> | can be css only |
| 09:42 | <@peter1138> | yay for css navigation |
| 09:42 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | and the "show more lines" thing looks pretty useless... you could make that exponentially or something, so you don't have to click 200 times to get the logs of the whole day |
| 09:43 | <SpComb> | Eddi|zuHause2: it's still an early model of that feature, I'm trying to work in full-featured scrolling |
| 09:43 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | and possibly enter date and time, and a search function |
| 09:43 | <@peter1138> | ajax'd! |
| 09:43 | <SpComb> | it has search |
| 09:43 | <SpComb> | but yes, scroll to date/time/start of day |
| 09:44 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | that search thing is really invisible |
| 09:44 | <SpComb> | I'll have to do a fair bit of reworking to do the scrolling sensibly |
| 09:44 | <SpComb> | hey, I'm not a UI designer :P |
| 09:45 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | and about the konqueror problem: the first new line appears allright, but all consecutive new lines get added to the same line |
| 09:45 | <SpComb> | yeah, it's probably some issue with there being a newline somewhere, or it not regarding the <script> as a newline, or *something* |
| 09:46 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | and the last line has graphics glitches, when you scroll to the right, the black background sticks out to the left |
| 09:46 | <SpComb> | having a seperate block-level element for each line should clear that up (and will be part of the scrolling thing) |
| 09:46 | <SpComb> | hopefully using a div will let me have it wrap the text as well, which doesn't really work with the current pre setup |
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| 09:58 | <SpComb> | peter1138: also, would the three levels of navigation bars be visible all the time, or would they appear when hovered over? |
| 09:59 | <@peter1138> | er, up to you? |
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| 10:37 | <boekabart> | Finally: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=586625#586625 |
| 10:38 | <boekabart> | Using the waterfall graphics leppka made. |
| 10:38 | <boekabart> | http://www.tt-forums.net//files/waterfalls_131.png |
| 10:39 | <@Bjarni> | cool |
| 10:39 | <@Bjarni> | how does the waterfall work with ships? |
| 10:39 | <@Bjarni> | one way access? :p |
| 10:39 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | boekabart: the sprite looks like an obiwan in the .grf |
| 10:39 | <boekabart> | Eddi|zuHause2: ???? |
| 10:39 | <@peter1138> | doesn't tile well :) |
| 10:39 | <@peter1138> | boekabart, how does that play with the other water patch stuff? |
| 10:40 | <boekabart> | Bjarni: do they look like a ship could travel up there!? |
| 10:40 | <@peter1138> | water flow... |
| 10:40 | <boekabart> | peter1138: this is the patch you did some work on too |
| 10:40 | <@peter1138> | yes |
| 10:40 | <@Bjarni> | <boekabart> Bjarni: do they look like a ship could travel up there!? <--- well. It depends on the ship. It's not like it's vertical waterfalls |
| 10:40 | <@peter1138> | but the more interesting rivers with flow...? |
| 10:40 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | boekabart: the sprite is one pixel off, it has white and black lines where they don't belong |
| 10:41 | <boekabart> | Bjarni: a hovercraft maybe. Those spots are rocks, not floating obiwans :) |
| 10:41 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | an "off by one" -> "obiwan" |
| 10:41 | <boekabart> | Eddi|zuHause2: I know, read the post ;) waiting for leppka to fix them |
| 10:41 | <@Bjarni> | oh they are rocks. I thought it was the water itself |
| 10:41 | <@Bjarni> | why are the waterfalls so rocky? |
| 10:42 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | i don't really like the rock things... |
| 10:42 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | it does not look right |
| 10:43 | <@peter1138> | Bjarni, so boats can't go up it ;p |
| 10:43 | <@Bjarni> | http://www.mountainscenes.com/Images/Sierras/SIE.004.20.H.WATERFALL.jpg <-- I think it looks more like a waterfall like this |
| 10:43 | <@Bjarni> | the white stuff doesn't really look like rocks |
| 10:44 | <@peter1138> | it's bits of iceberg stuck, maybe |
| 10:44 | <boekabart> | Sorry, I'm not a pixel artist myself... I'm depending on other people to do that I'm afraid |
| 10:44 | <@Bjarni> | <peter1138> Bjarni, so boats can't go up it ;p <-- I kind of figured that out when the rocks were mentioned |
| 10:45 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | how would rivers in the desert look like? |
| 10:45 | <boekabart> | Actually I didn't test that with this latest version... The waterfall tiles are type Clear Water now (as opposed to Shore) so they might actually. |
| 10:45 | <boekabart> | Eddi|zuHause2: Try it. Everything's right there |
| 10:45 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | i don't feel like compiling today |
| 10:46 | <boekabart> | i just added a win32 binary |
| 10:46 | <@Bjarni> | well |
| 10:46 | <@Bjarni> | a computer set up to do some real work can't use a win32 binary :p |
| 10:48 | <boekabart> | Actually leppka posted better rocks already, but not as a grf. |
| 10:48 | <boekabart> | and I don't know how to grfify pngs (mostly because they are 24bpp) |
| 10:51 | <@Bjarni> | the easy way is to do nothing |
| 10:51 | <@Bjarni> | and then hope that the 32 bit branch will be finished before you are finished |
| 10:51 | <@Bjarni> | converting 24 bit to 32 is no problem |
| 10:51 | <boekabart> | well same problem: you lose the animation |
| 10:51 | <boekabart> | Bjarni: I was actually hoping to get involved in te 32bpp branch |
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