TheGrebs.com:IRC Logs:#mythtv:2008:02:05

---	Log	opened Tue Feb 05 00:00:48 2008
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01:36	<sphery>	xris: Looks like the XmlConfiguration uses MythContext::GetConfDir(), so myth looks for config.xml first in the dir specified by the env var MYTHCONFDIR, then in $HOME/.mythtv. Doesn't seem to use Settings::LoadSettingsFiles() or MythContext::GetShareDir(), so it's simpler than the mysql.txt check.
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01:38	<xris>	thx
01:38	<xris>	I'm pulling thx mysql.txt stuff out of mythbackend.pm now, actually
01:38	<xris>	getting basic upnp-based scanning put in
01:47	<sphery>	Cool. That will be good. Having some parts use one and other parts use the other would be very confusing for users.
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02:22	<stuarta>	danielk22: we've come up with a list of what we need to do before 0.21. Anything you want to add to it?
02:22	<stuarta>	http://rafb.net/p/Zrx6UY97.html
02:22	<stuarta>	Otherwise it'll be put out to the -dev list as "what needs to be done before 0.21"
02:25	<stuarta>	crap that's the old list.
02:26	<stuarta>	http://rafb.net/p/UyzeoC89.html
02:28	<xris>	ahh, scotch should help the upnp headache. :)
02:28	<stuarta>	heh
02:29	*	xris needs a better supply of this stuff
02:29	<xris>	hmm, then again, the local liquor store has a bottle of this stuff.. I should stock up
02:31	<stuarta>	the headline bbc story today is Audio Described tracks in their broadcast.
02:31	<stuarta>	must be a slow day
02:33	*	stuarta heads to the office
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02:37	<clever>	where in the code would i have to change things
02:37	<clever>	so it streams from the backend when its in the WatchingRecording mode?
02:37	<clever>	nfs has trouble with files that are being appended to
02:42	<xris>	I think there's a frontend setting for "always stream from the backend"
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02:43	<clever>	yeah
02:43	<clever>	but i dont want it allways
02:43	<clever>	i want it sometimes
02:45	<xris>	w00t, upnp auto-detection.
02:45	<xris>	in perl
02:45	<sphery>	Nice.
02:45	<xris>	and scotch smells really nice...
02:50	<xris>	hmm, I'm missing something..
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03:12	<clever>	the db schema question is a nice addition:D
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---	Log	closed Tue Feb 05 03:34:19 2008
---	Log	opened Tue Feb 05 03:34:25 2008
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03:41	<unagi>	i am trying so hard not to give up on mythtv
03:43	<siXy>	unagi: /topic
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03:45	<unagi>	oh crap
03:45	<unagi>	sorry
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05:54	<justinh>	morning
06:02	<rooaus>	danielk22: Could you give some pointers on what needs to be done to implement software scaling for xlib and xshm. Is VideoOutputXv::ProcessFrameMem() the right place?
06:03	<rooaus>	justinh: morning
06:04	<justinh>	started work on the base.xml base fonts for all the core themes. then we can say goodbye to font definitions in the various ui xml files :)
06:04	<justinh>	no more font mixamatosis :)
06:05	<rooaus>	cool
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06:21	<justinh>	anybody agree that font base sizes of small (8pt), medium (16pt) and large (22pt) seem fine?
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06:24	<siXy>	on small CRTs, an extra-large would be nice. or a larger large.
06:25	<justinh>	just starting with three base sizes for now
06:25	<justinh>	I can only think of one thing that uses a super mega-large font & that's in mythvideo IIRC
06:38	<janneg>	justinh: small might be a little too small
06:38	<justinh>	ok. everything's still up in the air & open to experimentation
06:50	<gbee>	justinh: go with something above 12pt for small, when I was experimenting with metallurgy I found that was the minimum needed to remain readable in different conditions
06:53	<gbee>	maybe small 12pt, medium 16pt, large 20pt? Reduces the spread but that's similar to what metallurgy uses and I've had no complaints
06:54	<justinh>	sounds ok to me :)
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06:57	<gbee>	extralarge could be around 22pt+, might be used for main menus etc, but I can't see it being used elsewhere
06:59	*	gbee finally finishes reading the 105 mythtv related emails and realises that half the day has gone
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08:18	<janneg>	bah, I've most open tickets with 0.21 milestone
08:25	<stuarta>	:(
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09:16	<setuid>	I've got what may be a development question... We had a talk last night at our LUG on MythTV with a demo, and a lot of questions came up. From a development perspective, some "features" didn't appear to exist (yet?). So I'd like to throw it out there and see if it's possible, or might already exist.
09:16	<setuid>	First one is the ability to flag "viewed" programs, so that recording all "new" episodes of that program wouldn't re-record ones I've already watched and expired away.
09:17	<setuid>	My "commercial" DVR solution does this.. I tell it to record all new programs, I watch them all, delete them, and because they no longer exist on the DVR, it re-records them at the next repeated interval.
09:17	<setuid>	So I'd like to see if I have to write a plugin that does the right thing here.
09:17	<GreyFoxx>	Myth keeps a history and wont rerecord a show unless you tell it to
09:17	<setuid>	That was my next question....
09:17	<GreyFoxx>	Or unless the show description/title e4tc is different than what the history has
09:18	<justinh>	then that's the guide data to blame, not mythtv ;)
09:18	<setuid>	With the scheduling data, it was demoed last night that it only keeps a few days of historical scheduling data. I'd need to extend this to at least a full season, possibly two seasons.
09:19	<justinh>	setuid: depends on the agreement with the data provider. SD won't allow archiving it AFAIK - and possibly others will be similar
09:19	<GreyFoxx>	It keeps a week or so historical program guide, but permanently keeps recording history
09:19	<setuid>	GreyFoxx, Ok, what you just said might be the key here...
09:19	<GreyFoxx>	as well, keeping that much data in the programs table will cause severe performance issues in several areas including scheduling
09:20	<justinh>	keeps a history of recorded shows for as long as you let it
09:20	<GreyFoxx>	setuid: there is a "oldrecorded" table which keeps a permanent recording history
09:20	<GreyFoxx>	You can tell it to wipe the history for a show to start recording old episodes again if you want
09:20	<setuid>	Let's say there are new episodes of something that I haven't watched yet, AND were not recorded (because the tuner was busy recording something else at the time), and the scheduling data has expired... does it keep a history of what _would_ have been recorded, or only what _was_ recorded?
09:20	<GreyFoxx>	but few people do that
09:20	<GreyFoxx>	was
09:21	<setuid>	ah, so I'd need to patch that up, or write some custom queries to the db to roll it into my own table
09:21	<GreyFoxx>	If the tuner is busy it will attempt to reschedule if the show appears at a later date depending on the scheduling rule
09:21	<setuid>	That's why I'd need to go back at least a full season
09:21	<GreyFoxx>	That's why I often use rules like "Record house on on Fox at any time"
09:21	<GreyFoxx>	then it will reschedule at a later time if no tuners are available AND the episode is available later
09:22	<setuid>	Heroes is one great example... my daughter's Noggin recordings superceded a Heroes episode or three, and so I missed recording them (on my commercial DVR), and now I can't go back and see when they were, or what episodes they were, to try to find them again.
09:22	<GreyFoxx>	setuid: Then use priorities
09:22	<GreyFoxx>	Make hers a lower priority and your schedules will win :)
09:22	<setuid>	Is it possible to tell MythTV to record "House" on any channel at any time it is available?
09:22	<GreyFoxx>	My daughters shows are all -5
09:22	<GreyFoxx>	setuid: yes
09:22	<GreyFoxx>	anytime any channel
09:23	<setuid>	As long as the string "House" matches, right?
09:23	<setuid>	Or I should say... "^House$", right?
09:23	<GreyFoxx>	yes
09:23	<setuid>	I wouldn't want "House Hunters" or something to be recorded instead :D
09:23	<GreyFoxx>	It's not a wildcard match :)
09:24	<setuid>	Of course
09:24	<GreyFoxx>	But with power schedules it can use wildcards
09:24	<GreyFoxx>	It's infinitly flexible
09:25	<setuid>	Next question: is it possible to limit what parts of the guide show up, per-user? For example, my daughter runs MythTV on her slave node in her bedroom, and she only sees Noggin/Nickelodeon/etc., instead of the other channels I don't want her to see (CSI, Cold Case Files, etc.)
09:25	<GreyFoxx>	no, there is no concept of multiple users
09:25	<GreyFoxx>	expect for pins on shows in mythvideo and such to keep the kids out of the porn
09:25	<setuid>	I can't restrict the guide, not even through themes or something? or tell the master to only show a subset, when Node_A contacts it?
09:25	<GreyFoxx>	You have the source, you can tell it to do anything you like
09:25	<setuid>	Sure, but we don't have any pr0n channels
09:26	<GreyFoxx>	myth, as is, has no concept of users
09:26	<setuid>	Ok, so I'd have to add a login feature, and then have a level of permissions per-login, on the guide data.
09:26	<justinh>	my oldrecorded table goes as far back as 2005-12-28 21:00:00
09:26	<setuid>	Well, even a "rating" system or something would be nice... only show my daughter PG13 and under channels, for example
09:27	<hads>	Channels don't generally have ratings though.
09:27	<justinh>	nobody has yet extended the parental control system into TV
09:27	<setuid>	Which ties into my next question: It seems that she would be able to browse ALL cover art for all DVDs on the system, even if parental controls prohibit her from _watching_ them.
09:27	<GreyFoxx>	yupp
09:28	<setuid>	There should be a way to restrict that as well, so she can't even _view_ the cover art (which may be gorey or adult in nature), without proper credentials/age/whatever.
09:28	<justinh>	might be a good time to wonder how far the multiuser SoC code got
09:28	<siXy>	you must have some pretty dubious cover art for that to be an issue
09:28	<setuid>	siXy, Think horror movies
09:28	<setuid>	blood, knives, things that cause nightmares in a 4 year old
09:29	<justinh>	shouldn't be too hard to hide cover art for videos above the current viewable rating
09:29	<GreyFoxx>	I have never actually enabled any the Parental Controls stuff. Does it make you enter a pin at playback time or when entering mythvideos list/gallery ?
09:30	<GreyFoxx>	If it's at entering the gallery then you could substitue the image with a big red X
09:30	<justinh>	nor would it be too hard to implement a parental lock on some channels like it's possible to on some STBs
09:30	<setuid>	Ok, I'll keep going: Is it possible to rip DVDs to treat the unavoidable, ADHD-inducing intro dreck as "commercials", so she can watch _just_ the video part she wants? Right now, we can't stop, skip or forward past the damn intro stuff (red circle with slash comes up on our DVD players).
09:30	<justinh>	setuid: when the player is in software you can do anything you want ;)
09:30	<mattwire>	You could have a look at the channelgroup stuff on ticket 199 for the guide filtering
09:30	<setuid>	justinh, Sure, but how close is it to allowing me to cut that stuff out?
09:31	<justinh>	setuid: just skip past it
09:31	<mattwire>	shouldn't be too hard to restrict a frontend to one group only
09:31	<justinh>	mattwire: wouldn't be a bad thing to have a unified set of parental controls
09:31	<setuid>	mattwire, Right, but the problem seems to be that _viewing_ the list of available DVDs and _playing_ the list of available DVDs is under different parental controls at the momenyt
09:32	<siXy>	you might be able to add a parental level to channel list and recordings table, and then nick the pincode part of mythvideo to apply to guide/recordings
09:32	<setuid>	nod
09:32	<setuid>	I'm trying to whiteboard this all out, before I begin buying hardware and building it all
09:32	<GreyFoxx>	as long as all of that defaults to off
09:32	<justinh>	maybe even for music too :) stop little Tommy playing all your Gangsta rap :P
09:32	<siXy>	lol :)
09:33	<hads>	user type stuff
09:33	<justinh>	IMHO parental controls begins at removing the batteries from the remote ;)
09:33	<setuid>	Our provider (Dish Network) is inept, and we have to subscribe to this massive 180 channel package just to get Noggin. We get about 80 HD sports channels we never watch (and can't see anyway, no HD televisions in the house).
09:33	<setuid>	I wish they'd just say "Pick any 20 channels for $50/month" or something
09:33	<GreyFoxx>	Personally if I really don't want my daughter to see something I move it outside of the system, but I can undertstand why a parent might want those things
09:34	<setuid>	GreyFoxx, Sure, but now moving it out of the system means I need to have two separate places to store data...
09:34	<justinh>	don't forget parental controls can be used to keep parents out too ;)
09:34	<GreyFoxx>	setuid: a seperate directory on the same filesystem works
09:34	<GreyFoxx>	then just ssh in , mv to the video dir, run mythvideo and watch, exit and move back :)
09:34	<GreyFoxx>	I don't actually do it, but that's basically what I would do
09:35	<setuid>	Which brings me to my next point. I have ~100gb of music ripped from our massive CD collection sitting on a BSD fileserver (on a RAID slice, GELI-encrypted). I'd rather not have to copy that data to the MythTV master node, _and_ keep it on the BSD fileserver (so my wife's Mac, Windows machine and my Linux machine can get to it on the LAN with iTunes, Amarok, etc.)
09:35	<GreyFoxx>	My porn and movies are right there in the list with everything else
09:35	<justinh>	the day my wife learns how to enable viewing 'hidden files' I'm sunk
09:35	<setuid>	GreyFoxx, If I'm going to do that, I might as well just mount the drive over NFS and use mplayer to play it directly
09:35	<setuid>	Or just put Apache on there and point mplayer to the URL
09:36	<GreyFoxx>	setuid: which for the very very rare thing I might want to keep "hidden" would be likely a good idea :)
09:36	<setuid>	Can MythTV point to an existing location for music sitting on another physical machine, and incorporate that into it's media capabilities?
09:36	<GreyFoxx>	and my stuff is already nfs mounted anyway :)
09:36	<justinh>	there are already a bunch of point similar to ones raised just now on the wiki. dunno how many real devs read it though
09:36	<GreyFoxx>	setuid: You can just NFS mount the music and point mythmusic there
09:37	<GreyFoxx>	no need for it to be physically on the box
09:37	<setuid>	Ok
09:37	<setuid>	I'd rather not have to duplicate what exists on the SAN
09:37	<GreyFoxx>	4 of my 5 active frontends don't even have HD's :)
09:37	<setuid>	Sure, front-ends I can see... no need for storage or moving parts
09:37	<GreyFoxx>	Even backends don't need storage local
09:37	<setuid>	But the backend, I was told last night at the talk, that all music/movies/photos and the database had to exist on that box.
09:38	<justinh>	lies!
09:38	<GreyFoxx>	my recordings are in a large raid on my master backend, my mythvideo content is in a raid array on my slave backend.
09:38	<GreyFoxx>	my slave nfs mounts the masters myth directory and both write recordings there
09:38	<setuid>	Ok, here's an approach: is it possible to have two backend databases that one mythtv instance talks to? One for Parents and one for Children?
09:38	<GreyFoxx>	and the frontends nfs mount the music, photos, videos and recordings from the 2 of them
09:38	<justinh>	setuid: possible but impractical
09:38	<GreyFoxx>	setuid: not feasible
09:38	<GreyFoxx>	without a LOT of code changes
09:39	<setuid>	hrm
09:39	<setuid>	I'm not afraid of diving into the code... I'm just looking for a way to separate what my daughter can see/use and what she can't.
09:39	<hads>	setuid: These are really user questions.
09:39	<GreyFoxx>	setuid: don't make it harder than it has to be
09:39	<setuid>	hads, They're kind-of both, because I'll have to be adding code to the engine to support most of these.
09:39	<setuid>	GreyFoxx, Agreed. :D
09:40	<GreyFoxx>	some mods to the frontend for displaying the guide, and some small mythvideo mods and you should be fine
09:40	<justinh>	setuid: some of us have lists of stuff we wouldn't mind working on. parental controls is somewhere in mine. not that I'd use it myself right now but I can see its usefulness
09:40	<setuid>	I'm thinking about using some Koolu boxes for the front-ends (5W machines), and a massive server on the backend for storage and encoding.
09:41	<setuid>	At some point, I'd like to see if I can replace what the Slingbox does, with something bolted onto the MythTV install
09:41	<justinh>	again this is material for next door
09:42	<setuid>	My friend uses his Slingbox when he travels, to watch video on his cellphone while he's on the road, and watch his home recordings while he's in remote hotels around the world.
09:42	<setuid>	justinh, Ok, I'll trundle there and ask away.
09:45	<GreyFoxx>	setuid: the flash player in mythweb would do that for receordings
09:45	<GreyFoxx>	it doesn't do mythvideo content though
09:45	<GreyFoxx>	and it's in svn trunk only
09:45	<setuid>	What is "mythvideo content"?
09:45	<GreyFoxx>	non recordings
09:45	<GreyFoxx>	so DVD rips, xvid encoded stuff etc
09:45	<GreyFoxx>	mythvideo is the plugin used to access all that
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11:49	<Hendrik>	hi
11:49	<Hendrik>	i've a problem with my installation of mythtv
11:51	<gbee>	Hendrik: support is handled in #mythtv-users
11:51	*	justinh points that-a-way, towards the channel topic >>>>
11:51	<Hendrik>	after using make, i get a message "cannot find -lqt-mt"; collect2: ld returned 1 exit status
11:51	<Hendrik>	ok. thanks
11:51	<Hendrik>	sorry. my fault
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12:51	<xris>	gbee: so perl + upnp seems to work
12:52	<gbee>	cool
12:54	<gbee>	I've made changes to the preview generator so it can be used on DVDs (isos/vobs in mythvideo), by default it will grab a screenshot of the DVD Menu
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12:54	<gbee>	can also be used on videos which have a seektable
12:55	<gbee>	so mythvideo can show preview images instead of posters if a poster isn't available
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12:56	<gbee>	won't be committed before 0.21 though and I've not made the changes to mythvideo yet, but it doesn't require the backend be installed on the same machine as the videos
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13:00	<xris>	gbee: that's slick.. will help a TON with my tv archives
13:04	<xris>	I still want cover art lookup in the non-config section... browsing through hundreds of files in a list is really annoying.
13:04	<xris>	guess I could just put my tv archives back into the tv area.. but that's no fun.
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13:08	<GreyFoxx>	xris: yeah, it would be nice if the video manager had a browse like tree where you could navigate folders, or even just tell it to trim the list to show onlyt stuff matching a pattern or stuff with no info
13:17	<kormoc>	or use the web interface :P
13:18	<GreyFoxx>	True, true. Other than when it first when in I haven't really used it since
13:19	<kormoc>	Honestly, and not to toot my own horn, it's quite usabe now imho, tho I'm always loving feedback to make it better
13:30	*	GreyFoxx opens the webeditor heh
13:30	<GreyFoxx>	hmmm I should give the apache user the ability tot write out the cover art
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13:32	<xris>	kormoc: I do use the web interface. that's what prompted me to want that feature in gallery mode, too.
13:32	<kormoc>	heh, fair 'nuff
13:32	<xris>	the web interface isn't in the same room as the tv. sometimes I forget to run a scan on the web interface but want to pull in descriptions for new stuff
13:33	<kormoc>	ahh
13:33	<GreyFoxx>	kormoc: ahhh man I shoulda been doing this everytime I update stuff
13:33	<kormoc>	GreyFoxx, glad you like it :)
13:34	<kormoc>	xris, I guess I'm just way too lazy to even attempt editing on the tv itself
13:34	<GreyFoxx>	I've updated 4 in the span it wouldhave taken me to do 1
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13:42	<GreyFoxx>	kormoc: Seriously thanks for reminding me of this. I just updated a ton of stuff and it was dead simple :)
13:45	<kormoc>	:)
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14:26	<GreyFoxx>	wow, less than 400 open tickets.....
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14:30	<gbee>	GreyFoxx: that's like saying "Everest is only 29,000ft high" ;)
14:32	<danielk22>	There are only 98 0.21 tickets, 10 of which are marked major, critical or blocker.
14:33	<MrGandalf>	I see you closed a bunch of oldies..
14:34	<danielk22>	Yeah, but I haven't reviewed even half of them yet...
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14:35	<stuarta>	dammit. osx frontend crashes everytime i leave upcoming recordings
14:36	<MrGandalf>	I haven't had a chance to look at 15760 relating to 4566 yet.
14:39	<danielk22>	MrGandalf: I'm not sure it fixes things, but there is maybe a 50/50 chance.
14:40	<MrGandalf>	danielk22: problem is, the bug only shows up every 1-2 days
14:42	<MrGandalf>	I have another odd problem I need to track down this coming weekend.. relating to duplicate channums again. I have several channels which show up on only 2 of my 4 frontends, all running pretty much the same code. Very odd.
14:42	<gbee>	lets see if I can't close a couple of tickets tonight ...
14:44	*	gbee aims at the low hanging fruit first
14:44	<nordenm>	I'm looking forward to when 0.21 is released.. That's when I switch from beeing a user to beeing helpful by using the svn version and submitting patches :P
14:44	<danielk22>	MrGandalf, I think I saw that to when testing something the other day. A slave backend wasn't able to see guide data in lineups that weren't attached to local inputs. I didn't investigate any further as I thought it was just a broken setup..
14:46	<gbee>	ok, that's new - "libdvdread: Error cracking CSS key"
14:50	<MrGandalf>	danielk22: well, I've only one backend right now. On two of my backends, one affected, the other not, I made sure both were running the exact same code and even copied the settings from the good one to the bad and it changed nothing. It was the oddest thing. I have something broken somewhere I just can't tell where.
14:51	<MrGandalf>	but my new Windows frontend is fine.. very odd.
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14:55	<stf28>	hello the world
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15:15	<stuarta>	http://rafb.net/p/irClRb42.html
15:15	<stuarta>	this look like something we've recently fixed?
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15:27	<sphery>	Looks to me like if a user enables AutoExpireInsteadOfDelete and deletes a missing recording it will never be removed (and remain in the Deleted recgroup) since the autoexpirer refuses to delete shows whose files don't exist... Looks like we need a check for non-existent files in MainServer::DoHandleDeleteRecording() line 1985.
15:31	<sphery>	Or perhaps in the else at programs/mythbackend/mainserver.cpp +681 (in MainServer::customEvent(), handling AUTO_EXPIRE) with a call to DoHandleDeleteRecording() specifying forceMetadataDelete.
15:31	<sphery>	Thoughts, anyone?
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15:33	<MrGandalf>	speaking of autoexpire from deleted, have there been problems with that recently? my livetv mountpoint filled up this morning and I don't know why (though I haven't checked into it either)
15:33	<gbee>	sphery: so long as we check that the file is really missing and not that it's temporarily unavailable (nfs share offline)
15:34	<gbee>	I think checking the filesize in the database ought to be enough to determine that the recording failed
15:34	<sphery>	Yeah, but what about users who delete files...
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15:34	<gbee>	sphery: screw them - user error, own fault etc
15:34	<sphery>	That's how I found the issue, too (a user with a broken user job)
15:34	<gbee>	:)
15:35	<gbee>	sphery: I'm not sure we can really handle that situation without breaking things for the case I described above (offline nfs/samba share)
15:35	<sphery>	I think, though, that you're right--it may just be an offline share, so it's better to not expire it--even if it's in Deleted recgroup--and force the user to go into Watch/Delete recordings and select the Deleted recgroup and re-delete the show.
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15:36	<sphery>	Thanks for the sanity check, though.
15:36	<gbee>	better to have metadata with no recording, than to delete the metadata and leave the file because then the user is going to have real problems
15:37	<sphery>	agreed
15:37	<sphery>	And now, I know how to explain how to delete the metadata and why it's that way.
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15:49	<MrGandalf>	I have a nice little cleanup/archive script that could be added to contrib, but running it can be danderous if you don't know what you're doing
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15:51	<sphery>	MrGandalf: how does it differ from myth.find_orphans.pl and/or myth_archive_job.pl (or does it replace those with a new script that uses the Perl bindings :)?
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15:52	<MrGandalf>	sphery: I haven't looked at those, but yes, it does use the bindings, to a small extent.
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15:53	<MrGandalf>	sphery: what I prefer about mine is that it has a debug mode that tells you all it would do
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15:54	<sphery>	IMHO, any script that replaces those legacy scripts with a bindings-enabled script is a good thing. I'd love to see an svn rm on those... (and mythname.pl)
15:55	<MrGandalf>	sphery: http://pastebin.ca/893019
15:55	<sphery>	I have a work-in-progress on a script to replace some or all of them (and myth.rebuild_database.pl)
15:55	<MrGandalf>	if you think it's better, I'll add it to a ticket
15:57	<sphery>	definitely should replace myth.find_orphans.pl
15:57	<sphery>	still getting to archive mode--may want to suggest replaceing myth_archive_job.pl, too
15:58	<sphery>	Actually, I'd suggest you recommend replacing them both in your ticket...
15:58	<justinh>	sphery: great if packagers start including the bindings
15:58	<sphery>	They're included by default, now, because they're required for MythWeb.
15:59	<justinh>	hahaha that'll show em! :)
15:59	<sphery>	(I think they're used by parts of MythWeb.) I know they're used by mythrename.pl and several other contrib scripts.
16:00	<MrGandalf>	the problem with using the bindings is you have to update the script's "use ..." clause.
16:00	<sphery>	MrGandalf: To make a case for replacing myth_archive_job.pl: with storage groups support, there's no longer a need for symlinks, so it's been superseded by changes
16:01	<sphery>	The use should only require "use MythTV;"
16:01	<sphery>	Unless the person installing Myth has hacked the bindings installation to move it, i.e. to /usr/local even though their Perl is installed in /usr
16:02	<xris>	sphery: perl bindings not used by mythweb. but necessary for nuvexport and a bunch of contrib stuff
16:03	<sphery>	I stand corrected. Thanks.
16:03	<sphery>	You're also a much better person to explain how the use MythTV should work (i.e. should require a use lib--as in http://pastebin.ca/893019 --right?)
16:03	<xris>	brb
16:03	<MrGandalf>	sphery: the perl bindings might be better with a Makefile.PL. I'll create a ticket for that script then.
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16:04	<sphery>	I'm not sure what you mean. When I install Myth, it creates a Makefile.PL in bindings/perl
16:05	<sphery>	or, it's there to begin with and creates the makefile or however it works... (I don't know perl...)
16:05	<MrGandalf>	ah, so it does :)
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16:06	<sphery>	But, thank you very much for writing that script--I didn't want to write a script to replace those two, but the legacy (and now somewhat broken) code in them was annoying enough that I planned to do it.
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16:07	<MrGandalf>	sphery: np, I wrote it for selfish reasons :) Looks like the perl bindings have been updated.. when I first started using them I found I needed the use clause since "make install" didn't put the module in any normal place
16:08	<sphery>	Yeah. They've come a long way since xris first started working on them. Thanks, xris. :)
16:10	<xris>	:)
16:10	<xris>	hey, some random person donated $100 to a charity in my name in december... I figure it must be myth-related. kind of cool
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16:23	<kormoc_>	xris, do you get a tax break cause it was in your name?
16:23	*	kormoc_ ponders
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16:26	<xris>	kormoc: no clue. but if I did, I can't count the pile of donations I gave away to family for christmas
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16:37	<sphery>	Hmm. Trying to figure out how to pass the DB password to mysqldump for a DB backup. I can use -p<password>, but some (i.e. Cardoe, per #3762) won't like that. Interactive is out of the question.
16:38	<kormoc>	sphery, .my.cnf
16:38	<kormoc>	or as an env var
16:38	<Cardoe>	what kormoc said
16:38	<sphery>	So the only "more-secure option" is to have it in a config file (/etc/my.conf, ~/.my.conf).
16:39	<kormoc>	sadly, aye
16:39	<sphery>	But what about, i.e., ps that allows dumping the environment...
16:39	<kormoc>	other then perhaps faking interactive
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16:39	<Cardoe>	putting it in my.cnf won't allow you to run into any issues.
16:39	<kormoc>	yeah, .my.cnf is the preferred way (per mysql)
16:39	<sphery>	Can you specify another location for a my.cnf
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16:40	<kormoc>	via an option to the client, I think
16:40	<sphery>	Doesn't seem to be one in mysqldump...
16:40	<jblack>	bleh. I really wish that #mythtv-dev was the development channel, and #mythtv was for users
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16:40	<Cardoe>	sphery: --defaults-file
16:41	<sphery>	This is why I wanted to do the backup myself, but there are so many version-specific issues in determining the info I need from SHOW statements that it's unreasonable.
16:41	<Cardoe>	or --defaults-extra-file
16:41	<Cardoe>	sphery: I personally use the mysqlautobackup script
16:41	<Cardoe>	sorry automysqlbackup
16:41	<Cardoe>	http://sourceforge.net/projects/automysqlbackup/
16:42	<sphery>	I like the --defaults-extra-file... Thanks. With --defaults-file, I'd have to copy the global file that would be used, then scan through it to see if it has the password, then add the section if necessary.
16:42	<sphery>	extra seems good.
16:43	<sphery>	Though, does ~/.my.cnf count as a "global" file? I.e. would it read my password-only temporary defaults-extra-file if the user only had a .my.cnf?
16:44	<sphery>	automysqlbackup is interesting, but I'm trying to ensure that we only do backups when it won't adversely affect recordings or playback or ...
16:50	<sphery>	Cardoe: I think I'll be handling the locking issues you specified in #3762, but the backup will have all the data and the create table statements, so users doing a partial restore (i.e. http://mythtv.org/docs/mythtv-HOWTO-23.html#ss23.7 ) may still need to grep for the appropriate INSERT statements for the appropriate tables (leaving the rest).
16:51	<Cardoe>	oh like that
16:51	<kormoc>	sphery, it gets a tad more complicated, but a lot of backusp to one file per table and a table-create.sql for the create statements
16:51	<Cardoe>	for the documentation
16:53	<Cardoe>	sphery: are you updating the docs, or trying to setup your own automated backup?
16:53	<kormoc>	Cardoe, attempting to add backups to the myth housekeeping thread
16:53	<sphery>	yep
16:53	<sphery>	Currently looking at: mysqldump --defaults-extra-file=<filename> --add-drop-table --add-locks --allow-keywords --comments --complete-insert --extended-insert --lock-all-tables --no-create-db --quick --set-charset
16:53	<sphery>	extra file with password, just in case
16:54	<sphery>	nothing else
16:54	<Cardoe>	why use mysqldump when you can just do the native SQL statements?
16:54	<sphery>	--no-create-db because we should still use mc.sql (since it sets privileges,e tc)
16:54	<Cardoe>	if you already have a process
16:54	<Cardoe>	that process has access to your database config info
16:54	<Cardoe>	look at how phpmyadmin does backups
16:54	<Cardoe>	it doesn't call mysqldump
16:55	<clever>	show create table recorded;
16:55	<sphery>	to use the native SQL, I have to use SHOW statements to get the info about the DB (or it has to be changed with every DB schema change). There are enough version specific differences involved in the SHOW statements that I thought it was inappropriate.
16:55	<Cardoe>	why do you have to use show?
16:56	<sphery>	i.e. in 5.0.1, SHOW TABLES includes views, in 5.0.0 and 5.0.1, it doesn't. In 5.0.2, SHOW FULL TABLES was added to distinguish between tables and views, and since views shouldn't be backed up...
16:56	<sphery>	(at least not as a CREATE TABLE)
16:56	<Cardoe>	If someone is using 5.0.0 or 5.0.1, they should be shot.
16:56	<sphery>	how else do I find out what tables, columns, ... exist to back up
16:56	<Cardoe>	That was pre-alpha
16:56	<sphery>	The differences continue in all the places I touched.
16:57	<Cardoe>	sphery: why not backup the whole thing?
16:57	<sphery>	How do you do that with native SQL?
16:58	<sphery>	BACKUP TABLE is deprecated and just copies the binary files, so it's not very useful when changing versions of MySQL or for "partial" restores.
16:58	<sphery>	all other backup-type support does the same.
16:58	<sphery>	(including mysqlhotcopy)
16:59	<Cardoe>	seriously though.. I would NOT worry about 5.0.0 and 5.0.1
16:59	<sphery>	mysqldump is a good way of getting an SQL snapshot, and--since it's shipped with mysql--it has all the version-specific knowledge it needs (i.e. it's the same version as the DB).
16:59	<Cardoe>	anything before 5.0.3 had serious corruption issues.
16:59	<Cardoe>	like I said those are pre-alpha versions
16:59	<sphery>	well, we've officially dropped support for anything before 5.0, but didn't say anything about 5.0.2 being the minimum.
16:59	<sphery>	And, really, it's more than just that.
16:59	<Cardoe>	read MySQLs own site
17:00	<Cardoe>	5.0.14 I believe was the first "official" release.
17:00	<Cardoe>	does the list of tables change that often?
17:01	<sphery>	I actually have nearly all the code for the "native" backup, but it will have far more issues than just using mysqldump. And, since the issues are likely to only be found when some poor unsuspecting user tried to restore a DB from a backup, saying, "thanks for reporting a bug, time to wipe your DB and lose all your history" isn't something I want to have to do. :)
17:01	<Cardoe>	SELECT * INTO OUTFILE 'tbl_name.sql' FROM 'tbl_name';
17:01	<Cardoe>	is the typical way applications can create backups internally
17:01	<sphery>	into outfile requires permissions that most users probably haven't granted
17:02	<sphery>	and different permissions depending on mysql version...
17:02	<sphery>	but, if nothing else, requires a global file permission
17:02	<sphery>	and the location to which they can write is limited by user/DB issues.
17:03	<Cardoe>	as per the MythTV docs, those privileges exist.
17:03	<Cardoe>	MythTV docs and the mc.sql file that is provided by default does GRANT ALL
17:03	<Cardoe>	so outfile is allowed
17:03	<sphery>	IMHO, an automated backup solution that doesn't necessarily work right in all situations is probably worse than having no automated backup solution at all. :)
17:04	<sphery>	GRANT ALL ON mythconverg.* does not grant FILE
17:04	<sphery>	FILE is a global privilege
17:04	<Cardoe>	ok
17:04	<Cardoe>	btw.
17:05	<Cardoe>	5.0.15 was the official release of 5.0.x
17:05	<Cardoe>	It's pretty safe to require at least that version
17:05	<Cardoe>	because no distro shipped a version less then that
17:05	<Cardoe>	and if someone out there is running something less then 5.0.2.. well I can guarantee they're not.
17:06	*	kormoc downgrades to 5.0.1
17:07	<Cardoe>	heh.
17:07	<Cardoe>	I'd actually like to see someone use 5.0.1 and try to use MythTV
17:07	<Cardoe>	I know the early 5.0.x versions weren't compatible with themselves..
17:07	<Cardoe>	i.e. they left out some SQL parsing handling
17:07	<kormoc>	I ran myth from the 5.0.0 pre-releases till current
17:07	<Cardoe>	like NOT didn't exist
17:09	<Cardoe>	requiring 5.0.2 instead of 5.0.0 isn't that big of a demand
17:12	<sphery>	Well, there are other issues, too. encoding/charset issues. The 5.0.x stuff was one example. Look through mysqldump.c to see a lot more issues you'd have to consider (that they don't since they're the same version as MySQL server--and they even have access to the C API, which I can't use).
17:12	<sphery>	I just figure, since they seem to have a working solution.
17:13	<Cardoe>	using grep on mysqldump is a bad idea.
17:13	<sphery>	Though, for those whose backend doesn't have MySQL installed...
17:14	<sphery>	Do up the patch for the docs, and I'm sure Robert will fix it. :)
17:14	<Cardoe>	the fact that it needs a patch is stupid
17:14	<Cardoe>	it's a 1 line change
17:15	<sphery>	actually, you have to explain that your approach requires that the user create the "new hardware" backup before dropping the DB (i.e. before the old hardware fails ;)
17:15	<Cardoe>	marking the ticket as closed when there is no owner is bad practice too