TheGrebs.com:IRC Logs:#linode:2008:01:24

---	Log	opened Thu Jan 24 00:00:13 2008
00:03	<atourino>	Off to bed
00:03	<atourino>	take care guys
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00:51	<@linbot>	New news from forums: Ping from within bash? in General Discussion <http://www.linode.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3049>;
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02:40	<irgeek>	Anyone here used a Barracuda spam filter, by chance?
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03:26	<row>	Hey, will my sign up be rejected if I open a 2nd account with same card/info apart from company name not personal?
03:26	<row>	as I have a personal server but also need a work related one and rather keep them on completely different accounts.
03:27	<row>	ah damit you are out of 540s
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03:52	<erik>	hello
03:52	-!-	erik is now known as Guest373
03:53	<Guest373>	I am getting permission problems on the apache server from a vanilla archlinux 2007.08 install.
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03:55	<irgeek>	Guest373: Can you explain more? That's pretty vague.
03:56	<Guest373>	I know. Let me try to add the relevant details.
03:57	<irgeek>	The pastebin may help: http://p.linode.com/
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03:59	<Guest373>	As soon as I add the directive "VirtualDocumentRoot /home/%0" everything goes to the dogs. The non virtual install stops working. I don't know what to do, because it probably requires configuring mod_vhost_alias.
03:59	<irgeek>	Which Apache?
04:00	<Guest373>	Server version: Apache/2.2.8 (Unix)
04:01	<irgeek>	Can you pastebin the error message?
04:01	<Guest373>	I want to use apache to host multiple virtual hosts which are all similar (joomla)
04:02	<Guest373>	I thought VirtualDocumentRoot ... would be the way to go ...
04:04	<Guest373>	When I start using VirtualDocumentRoot, apache refuses access to the non-virtual site. The /var/log/httpd/error_log says: client denied by server configuration.
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04:10	<irgeek>	Is the VirtualDocumentRoot directive in a different VirtualHost container to the non-virtual site?
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04:23	<Guest373>	No
04:23	<Guest373>	I think I'd better switch off the non-virtual site altogether. I don't need it anyway.
04:25	<Guest373>	I've found it. It is the restrictive default (deny from all) for the root folder that also seems to apply to virtual hosts.
04:26	<Guest373>	Can I create users with usernames like: www.kokonut.com ? With dots and all?
04:26	<Internat>	no
04:27	<Internat>	assuming ur meaning unix users
04:27	<Guest373>	yes
04:27	<Internat>	it goes against the convention of 8 char usernames, and is highly recommened that you dont use dots or symboles. Most adduser commands enforce that, but there are optiosn to ignore that restricion, but i can break things like apache or wha tnto
04:28	<irgeek>	Actually, it's possible but some things break.
04:28	<metaperl>	the convention of 8-char usernames... what decade is that from?
04:28	<Guest373>	apache will server all content for www.kokonut.com from /home/www.kokonut.com. Now I just need to make sure that only the user with rights to that folder can modify its content.
04:28	<metaperl>	make the user kokonut
04:28	<metaperl>	I think it ls -l listings that group will be more readable
04:28	<Guest373>	I thought of creating user www.kokonut.com. That would automatically create a folder /home/www.kokonut.com for that user.
04:29	<Internat>	my web users are all liked HostUXX and HostGXX
04:29	<Internat>	where xx is a account identifier that is in my database
04:30	<irgeek>	I'd suggest a different method: Give the user a /home/username/ directory with a ww or public_html folder inside. Then ln -s from something like /var/www to /home/user/www
04:30	<irgeek>	That way users have a place they can put files which isn't web-accessible.
04:31	<Guest373>	What's wrong with /home/www.kokonut.com? I got it working to that point already ...
04:31	<irgeek>	Uh, .bash_history for one thing?
04:31	<Guest373>	It won't work?
04:32	<irgeek>	s/\?/\!/
04:32	<irgeek>	It will work, but anyone can read their .bash_history as it will be created in $HOME which is also their we root.
04:32	<Guest373>	The users won't be using anything else than the web. I don't want to support anything else. Really.
04:32	<irgeek>	How do they upload files?
04:33	<Guest373>	ssh
04:33	<Guest373>	Actually. The primary way to manage their installation is the joomla backend.
04:33	<Guest373>	I only host joomla.
04:33	<irgeek>	If they only get a joomla account, why do they need a login?
04:34	<Guest373>	ssh
04:34	<irgeek>	Isn't joomla all web GUI?
04:34	<irgeek>	But what do they need ssh for?
04:34	<Guest373>	Maybe you're right. I will put the site in a subfolder.
04:34	<Guest373>	ssh --> to muck around if vanilla joomla fails ... :-)
04:36	<@linbot>	New news from forums: Subfolders with Dovecot/Postfix in Email/SMTP Related Forum <http://www.linode.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3063>;
04:37	<irgeek>	Make a directory called /var/www/hosted. Symlink /var/www/hosted/www.the_users_domain.com/ to the associated user's $HOME/www directory and change your Apache config to be VirtualDocumentRoot /var/www/hosted/%0
04:39	<irgeek>	You can set up your default site to point to /var/www so that users can configure and play with their site before it goes live by visiting your_host.your_domain.com/hosted/the_users_domain
04:39	<irgeek>	Er, that should be your_host.your_domain.com/hosted/www.the_users_domain.com
04:42	<Guest373>	Sounds good.
04:43	<row>	is there anyway I could get a Linode 360 with 2 ips and then upgrade to a 540 as soon as they become available without losing my IP if I stay in same DC?
04:44	<Guest373>	Another problem. Apache should preferably switch user when reading/writing in a particular hosted directory. Is there a way to use suexec for that or so?
04:45	<irgeek>	row: Yes. As long as you stay in the same DC you can upgrade (or downgrade) and keep you IPs.
04:46	<row>	irgeek: wonderful
04:46	<irgeek>	Guest373: I'm not sure that suexec is supported with VirtualDocumentRoot
04:48	<Guest373>	Maybe there is a way to switch credentials that works with mod_php?
04:50	<Guest373>	Does anybody know if suphp is any good?
04:52	<irgeek>	I've never used it. If you want to run php as the user, I believe it must be run as a CGI. This, of course, hurts performance as you add the PHP startup to each request.
04:53	<Internat>	well if u run it as fastcgi u dont have that problem
04:53	<Internat>	only for the FIRST request then it just stays running
04:54	<Guest373>	Joomla does a lot of writing to its own folders. And the apache user therefore needs write permissions on the site's folder. It actually means that one user can write to another user's folder too ...
04:54	<Guest373>	I want to disallow that kind of stuff ...
04:55	<irgeek>	Guest373: That's a major headache for every web hosting company in existence.
04:55	<irgeek>	Welcome to the world of hosting.
04:56	<Internat>	suexec+fcgi si the way to get arround that
04:56	<Internat>	its really the ONLY thing u can do that does things properly
04:57	<irgeek>	Of course, you then have a PHP process for each site, so throwing too many accounts on one host will affect performance.
04:57	-!-	marcel [~marcel@lt3.xs4all.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
04:57	<Internat>	although if u host small sites, and have fcgi timeout after a specific time its probably not a huge issue
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05:02	<Guest373>	How do the other hosters do it? Just let it be?
05:03	<Guest373>	I doubt they are using suexec+fcgi ...
05:03	<Internat>	i am.. for ,y hosting company
05:04	<Guest373>	If I understand it right, most hosting companies just run the risk that one user overwrites the stuff of another user ...
05:05	<Internat>	well thats pretty stupid and unresponsible of them
05:14	<irgeek>	I had a shared hosting account once. It included the ability to host email along side http. Within an hour of signing up I found a root compromise. I told them about it, made sure they fixed it, then closed my account.
05:16	<Internat>	yeah i dun give our shell accounts FTP only.. thers ssl version of most things
05:17	<irgeek>	The virtual hosting platform, BTW, was FreeVSD. Mildly useful for playing around, absolute crap w/r/t hosting.
05:18	<Internat>	im using my own at the moment
05:18	<Guest373>	Can fcgi execute ordinary php scripts, or are there issues executing php?
05:18	<Internat>	as far as i can tell it can
05:19	<row>	php supports fcgi
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05:26	<bleu>	morning all
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05:28	<bleu>	irgeek howdy
05:28	<irgeek>	'lo
05:29	<bleu>	I have managed to set up some new domains
05:29	<bleu>	http://pastebin.linode.com/186
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05:29	<bleu>	but there is a something i dont understand
05:29	<bleu>	about where to put the directory
05:29	<bleu>	how to create the direectory structure
05:30	<bleu>	like for example
05:30	<bleu>	i created a new domain
05:30	<bleu>	for full-attribution-license.com
05:30	<bleu>	i pointed that domain to the ip
05:30	<bleu>	and in the setup as you showed me
05:31	<bleu>	i added the directory /var/www/fal/
05:31	<bleu>	fal/
05:31	<bleu>	but it still pointed the site to the root
05:31	<bleu>	in the next part though
05:31	<irgeek>	Did you restart Apache?
05:31	<bleu>	no
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05:31	<bleu>	ah
05:32	<bleu>	<Directory /var/www/>
05:32	<bleu>	this i did not notice
05:32	<irgeek>	When you change Apache's config files, you need to do an /etc/init.d/apache2 restart
05:32	<bleu>	should I have added the fal inthere also
05:32	<bleu>	ok
05:32	<bleu>	also
05:32	<bleu>	one more thing
05:32	<irgeek>	The Directory entry is fine, unless you want different options for the fal directory
05:32	<@mikegrb>	lolz
05:32	<bleu>	lol
05:33	<@mikegrb>	lolz
05:33	<bleu>	lol
05:33	<bleu>	okok
05:33	<bleu>	lets not get too excited
05:33	<bleu>	when i try to make new directories using cyberduck
05:33	<bleu>	it says not permission
05:34	<bleu>	so i made them with mkdir in the terminal
05:34	<bleu>	i guess i have to give myself permissions somehow
05:34	<bleu>	so i reboot now
05:34	<irgeek>	That's the 'better' way to do it. Otherwise, you need to attach as root with Cyberduck.
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05:35	<bleu>	ok
05:35	<bleu>	thanks
05:35	<bleu>	I can handle that
05:35	-!-	Karnaugh_ is now known as Karnaugh
05:35	<irgeek>	ScriptAlias /cgi-bin/ /usr/lib/cgi-bin/ - All your hosts will share one /cgi-bin/ unless you change this.
05:36	<irgeek>	ErrorLog /var/log/apache2/error.log & CustomLog /var/log/apache2/access.log combined - I prefer to keep the logs for each site separated.
05:36	<bleu>	i make a note of that
05:36	<bleu>	how would you set up the logs
05:37	<irgeek>	Alias /doc/ "/usr/share/doc/" & The Directory block after it - You don't reallly need a /doc/ alias for the virtual sites.
05:37	<bleu>	ok
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05:38	<bleu>	so remove this line
05:38	<bleu>	Alias /doc/ "/usr/share/doc/"
05:38	<irgeek>	Change /var/log/apache2/error.log to /var/log/apache2/whatever.the_servername_is.com/error.log then create the var/log/apache2/whatever.the_servername_is.com directory. Same for CustomLog. You just change the path.
05:39	<irgeek>	Ok, I'll tell you what the script I was talking about will do: It will create something like the file we worked on last night for the default host.
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05:39	<irgeek>	Then it will created a file for each VirtualHost.
05:39	<bleu>	aha
05:40	<bleu>	that woould be very helpful
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05:40	<bleu>	it would be helpful for me to see an example of how a virtualhost (a second one) would look
05:41	<bleu>	to see the recommended structure and diffeerecnce
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05:43	<irgeek>	Somthing like this: http://pastebin.linode.com/190
05:43	<bleu>	thanks
05:43	<irgeek>	I haven't really checked if the works, but it should be right.
05:44	<bleu>	ok thats very helpful
05:44	<bleu>	now how would i delete the 2 i made yesterday while trying
05:45	<bleu>	also
05:45	<irgeek>	Delete the files? 'rm filename'
05:45	<irgeek>	rm = remove
05:45	<bleu>	erm
05:45	<bleu>	no
05:45	<bleu>	as i understand it
05:46	<bleu>	i set up 2 new vertialhosts for fal and one for another domain
05:46	<bleu>	they both dont work
05:46	<bleu>	as i copied the system you showed me for the first
05:46	-!-	Kenobi [alucard@71-88-98-242.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
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05:46	<bleu>	so i guess i have to delete them
05:47	<irgeek>	Where did you put the files?
05:47	<bleu>	see at the moment http://www.full-attribution-license.com/
05:47	<bleu>	this is pointing to the root
05:47	<bleu>	which is also the site of the first
05:48	<bleu>	http://www.the-authorities.com/
05:48	<irgeek>	Your config file has 'ServerName full-attribution-license.com". full-attribution-license.com != www.full-attribution-license.com
05:49	<irgeek>	The example I showed you has a ServerAlias line. Guess what that does...
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05:49	<bleu>	aha
05:49	<bleu>	ok
05:50	<bleu>	so i see i made the error
05:50	<bleu>	so how would I delete that account
05:52	<bleu>	also is the correct method to place these files onto a server and call them in the example you gave
05:53	<bleu>	or would one normally add the set up files some other way
05:53	<bleu>	see what i did was this :
05:54	<bleu>	wget http://www.myplaylist.biz/tests/default1.html http://www.myplaylist.biz/tests/ssl1.html && a2ensite default.html && a2ensite ssl.html && a2enmod ssl
05:54	<bleu>	i created 2 files that were the same as the ones you showed me
05:54	<bleu>	then I uploaded them to a server
05:55	<bleu>	but im wondering if this is the right procudeure
05:56	<irgeek>	You can move the files around however you like. Using wget last night was a quick 7 easy way to get an exact copy of a file from me to you. Most people either edit the files directly on the server or edit them locally and upload them. You can upload them you your home directory then move them to the correct place.
05:57	<bleu>	i see
05:58	<bleu>	i take it you need the 2 files for each VH
05:58	<bleu>	ssl and the default
05:58	<irgeek>	As you may have guessed, your limited experience with a *nix command line will make all of this much more difficult for you. You should start out by learning to use Linux.
05:59	-!-	jams [~jams@CPE-72-131-6-174.wi.res.rr.com] has joined #linode
05:59	<irgeek>	SSL is a whole different ball game. It requires a unique IP or port per site.
06:00	<bleu>	right so that one stays the same
06:01	<bleu>	could you give me an example of how the ssl file should look for a new domain
06:04	<Internat>	ponders when this channel became apache.org :P
06:06	<encode>	Internat: or #linux
06:07	<bleu>	ok maybe I should change groups
06:07	<bleu>	sorry for all the noob questioins
06:07	<Internat>	i think ur asking for configuration details that are really outside the bounds of linode community support
06:07	<bleu>	i am just trying to find my way
06:07	<Internat>	you really should do some research on apache.org or howtoforge.com
06:07	<bleu>	sure
06:08	<bleu>	i do realise im being a pain
06:08	<bleu>	but in 2 days i have made great progress
06:08	<Internat>	i mean people in here are more then happy to help out etc, but there is a line between helping, and configuring everything :)
06:08	<bleu>	yes ofcourse
06:08	<bleu>	one more thing
06:08	<@mikegrb>	lolz
06:08	<bleu>	lol
06:09	<bleu>	only joiking
06:09	<@mikegrb>	lolz
06:09	<Internat>	lol
06:09	<bleu>	ok i will leave you all alone
06:09	<bleu>	many thanks for all your help
06:09	<bleu>	its been great to get me started
06:10	<bleu>	I think i would have been to intimidated to make this journey if i had no help to get started
06:10	<bleu>	but now i have got the domain sort of set up
06:10	<bleu>	its quite exciting
06:10	<bleu>	and i think it is a better solution that all that cpanel shit
06:10	<bleu>	that was using half the resuouces on our vps
06:11	<bleu>	so thanks all
06:11	<bleu>	and specially to irgeek
06:11	<bleu>	you have been very good to me sir
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06:15	<Nemesis__>	i can't seem to get to my linode ... or www.linode.com for that matter
06:16	<Nemesis__>	oh man. trust my luck -- as soon as I join irc, it starts working again.
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07:07	<row>	oh damit
07:08	<row>	no room in Atlanta DC
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07:27	<heidi>	mwalling: run away from slackware
07:28	<mwalling>	heidi: bah
07:30	<agentbleubleu>	has anyone any idea what #linux group to join, such as irc.freenode.net
07:30	<agentbleubleu>	i cannot seem to find any active comunities
07:31	<mwalling>	agentbleubleu: eh?
07:31	<@mikegrb>	lolz
07:31	<agentbleubleu>	lol
07:31	<mwalling>	there's lots of channels on freenode
07:32	<irgeek>	https://help.ubuntu.com/community/InternetRelayChat
07:32	<agentbleubleu>	thanks
07:32	<mwalling>	yeah, what he said
07:32	<row>	the xen beta test is rather stable now right, it is not up and down constantly I presume?
07:32	<irgeek>	Don't forget to look at Ubuntu's CoC: http://www.ubuntu.com/community/conduct
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08:11	<@linbot>	New news from forums: Debian unstable libc6 upgrade killed my system in Linux, Apache, Mysql and PHP (LAMP) Forum <http://www.linode.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1082>;
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09:03	<bleu>	irgeek
09:04	<bleu>	i could do with a small bit of aid
09:04	<bleu>	i have looked about for help in other places but to no luck
09:04	<irgeek>	OK
09:04	<bleu>	I need an example of this http://irgeek.com/default-ssl
09:04	<bleu>	for the second domain
09:05	<bleu>	like you did for the first defualt file
09:05	<guinea-pig>	ssl on a second domain...
09:05	<bleu>	no
09:05	<bleu>	I just need to know how to set up the second domain
09:06	<bleu>	I have done the first
09:06	<bleu>	sec i goto irc
09:06	<agentbleubleu>	wget http://www.myplaylist.biz/tests/default1.html http://www.myplaylist.biz/tests/ssl1.html && a2ensite default.html && a2ensite ssl.html && a2enmod ssl
09:06	<agentbleubleu>	this is the file I used to set up the first
09:07	<agentbleubleu>	but for the second domain I am unsure what to change in the ssl file
09:07	<agentbleubleu>	and if i need to really add this
09:08	<agentbleubleu>	I realize the default file has changed from the example above
09:08	<irgeek>	We already talked about SSL.
09:08	<agentbleubleu>	yes you said we leave it
09:08	<agentbleubleu>	one per domain
09:08	<@linbot>	New news from forums: Mixing 100mb and 1Gb ethernet in Linux Networking <http://www.linode.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3058>;
09:09	<irgeek>	If you want SSL on multiple domains your either need extra IPs (costs money and hard to get) or non-standard ports (URLs look like https://www.some_domain.com:4430/path/to/wherever)
09:09	<agentbleubleu>	no i dont want more than one
09:10	<irgeek>	Then why are you asking about setting up SSL for the second domain?
09:10	<guinea-pig>	then what are you talking about a second domain for?
09:10	<agentbleubleu>	I would like to have 15 domains on the linode
09:11	<agentbleubleu>	ok clearly i dont understand howto set up a second domain
09:11	<irgeek>	Great. You just said you don't want more than one SSL setup
09:11	<agentbleubleu>	im writing some notes for your wiki for others
09:11	<guinea-pig>	agentbleubleu: 15 domains, but only want SSL for one of them?
09:11	<agentbleubleu>	I will upload what I have and if someone could have a look at what I have put in and fill in the missing part for adding more domains
09:12	<agentbleubleu>	yes one ssl
09:12	<irgeek>	agentbleubleu: Stop.
09:12	<irgeek>	There's nothing to fucking configure if you only want SSL on one domain. That's done.
09:12	<agentbleubleu>	ok
09:13	*	guinea-pig goes off to get ready for work
09:13	<agentbleubleu>	so what would this line look like when i call it for seting up the second
09:13	<agentbleubleu>	wget http://www.myplaylist.biz/tests/default1.html http://www.myplaylist.biz/tests/ssl1.html && a2ensite default.html && a2ensite ssl.html && a2enmod ssl
09:13	<agentbleubleu>	something like
09:13	<@linbot>	New news from forums: Postfix not sending email in Email/SMTP Related Forum <http://www.linode.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3027>;
09:13	<agentbleubleu>	wget http://www.myplaylist.biz/tests/default1.html
09:14	<irgeek>	Dude. Sometimes helping you is very frustrating. If you want to get help, you need to answer our questions when we ask them.
09:14	<irgeek>	Do me a favor. Got and read what all of those commands in that string do. You don't understand enough yet.
09:15	<agentbleubleu>	ok
09:15	<irgeek>	I told you earlier, using wget was just a quick and dirty way to get files from me to you. It's not the normal way to do administration.
09:15	<agentbleubleu>	sure
09:16	<agentbleubleu>	i worked out how to edit the files
09:16	<agentbleubleu>	using nano
09:16	<agentbleubleu>	ok i go read some more
09:16	<agentbleubleu>	sorry to bug you
09:18	-!-	essope [~user@sparky.informatik.uni-erlangen.de] has joined #linode
09:22	<essope>	if someone were going to pay by the month, then switch to paying by the year, do they get the additional space when they change to annual payments?
09:22	<iggy>	yes
09:22	<essope>	cool
09:23	<iggy>	not to mention the nearly twice a year updates linode gives us, that often include storage space
09:24	<essope>	there is that advantage, yes
09:24	<iggy>	I think I started out with 1.2G of space or something silly like that
09:24	<iggy>	now almost 8
09:27	<@caker>	only 8?
09:27	<@caker>	iggy: base plan comes with 10G
09:27	<essope>	when does the xen based stuff become the default?
09:27	<iggy>	damnit
09:27	<iggy>	oh, hah, silly me
09:27	<iggy>	15
09:27	<iggy>	almost 8 free
09:28	<iggy>	it's too early
09:28	<@caker>	essope: the earliest it will come out of beta will be March -- but that doesn't imply that we'll just reboot everyone into Xen
09:28	<@caker>	there will be some type of schedule that may take a while -- but those that want to move sooner could, etc
09:28	<iggy>	I'll move when half of linode has moved
09:29	*	caker cries
09:29	<@caker>	why do I have Boom-Bop stuck in my head?!
09:29	<essope>	iggy: that will, of course, be the simple half. the problems come with the complex half :)
09:29	<iggy>	you mean mmmm-bop?
09:30	*	essope hums
09:30	*	essope curses iggy
09:30	<@caker>	iggy: yeah, that one
09:30	-!-	Bdragon [~Bdragon@dpc6746139138.direcpc.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
09:30	*	iggy fires up winamp
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09:37	<irgeek>	T-Shirt Hell used to sell a shirt that said "I fucked the girl in Hanson" :)
09:38	<@caker>	haha
09:41	<irgeek>	Wow. They're still around too. They released a new album on July 24 last year. It rose all the way to #56 on the Billboard charts.
09:41	<@linbot>	New news from forums: postfix with new MX record in Email/SMTP Related Forum <http://www.linode.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3064>;
09:50	<irgeek>	caker: Is your ticketing system built in-house or a package?
09:50	*	irgeek needs a decent ticketing system
09:50	<@caker>	in house
09:52	<irgeek>	I figured it was. It doesn't have any of the cruft I'm used to seeing.
09:52	<@caker>	I've seen this one everywhere: https://www.gnax.net/support/index.php?group=default .. not sure the name of it
09:56	<row>	yeah I have seen that too
09:56	<A-KO>	I'm not sure of some open source CRMs
09:57	<A-KO>	There are a number of commercial ones though
09:57	<A-KO>	each with varying degrees of software necessity
09:57	<A-KO>	Heat being extremely popular
09:57	<A-KO>	Rightnow being pouplar
09:57	<irgeek>	caker: I can't remember the name, but it's commercial. And not cheap.
09:57	<A-KO>	and my old company picked up something called footprints
09:57	<A-KO>	yeah CRMs usually cost a lot of $
09:58	-!-	cruxeternus [~44f5ddcd@webuser.linode.com] has joined #linode
09:58	<@mikegrb>	mmm cake
09:58	<row>	cake: that is Kayako supportsuite
09:58	<row>	caker*
09:58	<CDMoyer>	everyone my company seems to work with uses rt
09:58	<irgeek>	I don't need all the extra CRM stuff. There are only 4 IT guys here. I just need something easy to use that doesn't suck.
09:58	<CDMoyer>	or at least, a large portion of them.
09:58	*	irgeek hate rt
09:59	<CDMoyer>	yeah, we use it and I'm not a big fan. our system's team loves it.
09:59	<irgeek>	Getting rt installed is only slightly more difficult than explaining Calculus to a walrus.
10:01	<CDMoyer>	haha
10:01	<CDMoyer>	all the warlri that I know have phds in math.
10:03	<cruxeternus>	And day trade.
10:06	<irgeek>	FootPrints = $1,000/user. No thanks.
10:12	<irgeek>	I need to switch careers. I should develop and sell a simple business workflow package that real humans can understand. I'd make millions.
10:13	<A-KO>	then you would invalidate management
10:13	<@mikegrb>	lolz
10:13	<A-KO>	lol
10:14	<@caker>	I'm all for replacing humans with code
10:14	<A-KO>	as am I
10:14	<A-KO>	but just saying such a product wouldn't sell well with the masses :D
10:16	<irgeek>	The masses would love it. Management wouldn't. Too bad management signs the checks.
10:17	<Hobbsee>	caker: that would be nice. somewhat boring though - as there wouldn't be human stupidity to be stunned over.
10:17	<irgeek>	http://www.thinkgeek.com/tshirts/frustrations/374d/
10:28	-!-	h00s_ [~h00s@78-0-103-98.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #linode
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10:41	<irgeek>	Why do so many websites want me to type my email address twice in their signup forms? It bugs the crap out of me.
10:44	-!-	euph [~da@nh80.nathist.au.dk] has joined #linode
10:46	<irgeek>	These guys claim to make Open Source Document Management Software: http://www.knowledgetree.com/
10:47	<irgeek>	The only thing is, I can't find where you can download the software.
10:48	<@caker>	http://www.knowledgetree.com/node/38 ?
10:50	<irgeek>	There's no download link though. Just a form. If you fill out the form, you get and email linking back to the page with the form.
10:50	<cruxeternus>	Brilliant!
10:50	<irgeek>	I noticed their sf button and tried searching there.
10:50	<irgeek>	And found it.
10:50	<irgeek>	It's written in php. I hate hacking on php.
10:54	<irgeek>	And the license has a rider I can't live with: http://p.linode.com/191
10:54	<irgeek>	Next please!
10:59	<irgeek>	Every time I see a company trying to capitalize on being Open Source and getting it all wrong, I die a little inside. I'm taking my toys and going home!
10:59	-!-	irgeek [~irgeek@cealsa01.centamin.com] has quit [Quit: irgeek]
11:02	<cruxeternus>	:(
11:07	<cruxeternus>	I don't see how that's Linode's fault. :P
11:10	<zeroday>	what happened?
11:10	<JDLSpeedy>	zeroday: irgeek logged off
11:11	<anderiv>	so...how did things with FJHDZ turn out last night? Is anyone here this morning that was helping him?
11:11	<zeroday>	JDLSpeedy, I saw that, but I was wandering what cruxeternus was talking about
11:14	<JDLSpeedy>	oo, sorry
11:15	<JDLSpeedy>	i think he was talking about irgeek
11:18	-!-	scorche\|w [~42c007b2@ice.cream.org] has joined #linode
11:31	-!-	irgeek [~irgeek@41.234.220.196] has joined #linode
11:32	<irgeek>	cruxeternus: I was at work. It was time to go home. I just did that for dramatic effect
11:37	<cruxeternus>	and my next question... how did you know what I wrote after you left? :)
11:38	<irgeek>	http://www.linode.com/irc/logs/linode.log
11:38	<cruxeternus>	Anyway, I figured you were joking.
11:38	<cruxeternus>	hah, logs too... is there anything linode doesn't do??
11:38	<@tasaro>	!avail
11:38	<@linbot>	tasaro: Linode360 - 38, Linode540 - 0, Linode720 - 21, Linode1080 - 0, Linode1440 - 0
11:38	<@caker>	!weather 08201
11:38	<@linbot>	caker: Temperature: 33°F / 1°C \| Humidity: 40% \| Pressure: 30.04in / 1017hPa \| Conditions: Overcast \| Wind Direction: NNE \| Wind Speed: 9mph / 15km/h ; Today - Mostly cloudy. A chance of snow showers this morning... then snow likely this afternoon. Total accumulation of 1 to 3 inches. Highs in the upper 30s. Temperatures falling this afternoon. Northeast winds 10 to 15 mph. Chance of snow 60 percent.; Tonight - Partly (1 more message)
11:39	<@caker>	!beer
11:39	*	linbot dispenses beer
11:39	<Hobbsee>	cruxeternus: it doesn't say which DC's the available nodes are in.
11:39	<@mikegrb>	roflz
11:39	<cruxeternus>	rofl.. who needs the rest of the Internet? :)
11:39	<avongauss>	Is there anything linode doesn't do? They don't deliver Starbucks in the morning for one... :)
11:40	*	irgeek dreams about LCM - the Linode Caffeine Manager
11:40	<scott>	avongauss: you would be surprised at what mikegrb does for me
11:40	<avongauss>	surprised or scared? ;)
11:40	<scott>	heh
11:41	<irgeek>	Scarred if you saw it happening, I'll bet.
11:41	<avongauss>	just for the record, other than not delivering coffee in the morning, Linode is a great provider!
11:41	<agentbleubleu>	ok i have made some notes for nobs like me to follow, irgeek would you like to have a quick look at these to see if they are ok then maybe someone would like to add them to the wiki and you can point nobs like me over there in future.
11:41	<agentbleubleu>	http://www.documentary-film.net/test/guide.html
11:42	<@caker>	agentbleubleu: "CyberDuck for SSH" should read "CyberDuck for SFTP", I believe
11:42	<agentbleubleu>	thanks
11:43	<irgeek>	caker: Do you use a Mac?
11:43	<@caker>	irgeek: yup
11:43	*	irgeek hugs caker
11:44	*	irgeek loves his MacBook more than cheese
11:44	*	irgeek really, really loves cheese
11:44	<@caker>	ezcheese?
11:45	<irgeek>	That's just crack in a can!
11:45	<@mikegrb>	lolz
11:45	<cruxeternus>	lol
11:46	*	cruxeternus suspects mikegrb is "trigger"-happy.
11:46	<@mikegrb>	mmm cake
11:46	<@tasaro>	cake
11:46	<agentbleubleu>	so is it ok
11:47	<irgeek>	agentbleubleu: The adduser step has nothing to do with Apache setup. That's just adding a user so you don't have to log in as root every time.
11:47	<agentbleubleu>	ok
11:48	<irgeek>	Setting up MySQL shoud be Setting up phpMyAdmin
11:48	<irgeek>	And you forgot the part about editing /etc/apt/sources.list
11:50	<irgeek>	You mentioned the ssleay.cnf error, but you don't have the command in there that caused it.
11:51	<irgeek>	When you put long commands on the web, putting them in a textbox makes it easier for people to copy & paste them. You don't get all of the layout cruft.
11:52	<irgeek>	Running the three commands just before "Setting up the first domain" will break Apache.
11:53	<irgeek>	"wget http://yourdomain.com/default http://yourdomain.com/default-ssl" What?
11:53	-!-	scorche\|w [~42c007b2@ice.cream.org] has quit [Quit: CGI:IRC (Ping timeout)]
11:53	<@linbot>	New news from wiki: How to setup your Linode <http://www.linode.com/wiki/index.php/How_to_setup_your_Linode>;
11:54	<agentbleubleu>	this is in there I think
11:54	<agentbleubleu>	And you forgot the part about editing /etc/apt/sources.list
11:55	-!-	hfb [~hfb@pool-71-106-219-180.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #linode
11:55	<irgeek>	I finally found it at the bottom. That needs to happen before you try to insta phpMyAdmin
11:55	<irgeek>	phpmyadmin is in univers
11:55	<agentbleubleu>	ok
11:56	<agentbleubleu>	i will make some changes
11:56	<irgeek>	agentbleubleu: I wouldn't link to that from the wiki just yet.
11:56	<agentbleubleu>	i will edit it now
11:56	-!-	esoterik [~esoterik@178.90.171.66.subscriber.vzavenue.net] has joined #linode
11:57	-!-	scorche\|w [~42c007b2@ice.cream.org] has joined #linode
11:58	<agentbleubleu>	You mentioned the ssleay.cnf error, but you don't have the command in there that caused it.
11:58	<agentbleubleu>	what was that command?
11:58	<irgeek>	'sudo apt-get install vsftpd' FTP is insecure and everyone that knows how it works wishes it would fall off the face of the planet.
11:59	<A-KO>	what?
11:59	<A-KO>	FTP can be somewhat secure
11:59	<A-KO>	if you do it right
11:59	<A-KO>	but there is an inherent risk of open file transferring
11:59	-!-	Schroeder [1000@kntpin04-nas-02-s48.cinergycom.net] has joined #linode
11:59	<irgeek>	How do you do it right?
11:59	<Battousai>	tunnel it over ssh
11:59	<A-KO>	irgeek: Well, it depends on what your goal for the FTP server is?
11:59	<zeroday>	sftp
12:00	<A-KO>	i use FTP with SSL encryption, I also use SCP for backups (automation)
12:00	<irgeek>	My goal with any FTP server is to uninstall it.
12:00	<A-KO>	but I also allow non-critical users to send files
12:00	<irgeek>	FTP+SSL & SCP != FTP
12:00	<@caker>	irgeek: thank you.
12:01	<A-KO>	irgeek: yes but you can use FTP as a quick method to allow people who aren't authenticated that deeply to upload and download. For example, if you host websites, I like to let remote users manage their site directories
12:01	<A-KO>	which are also their home directories
12:01	<A-KO>	without having to use some web-based file system. FTP clients are quite nicely built, and designed around file transfers.
12:01	<irgeek>	Their passwords are sent in the clear. How, exactly is that not a problem?
12:01	<@caker>	and the content is sent in the clear, too
12:01	<irgeek>	So are SFTP clients, but they are secure.
12:01	<agentbleubleu>	hey you guys
12:01	<irgeek>	That too.
12:02	<agentbleubleu>	instead of arguing over ftp
12:02	<@caker>	there's no argument here -- just stating facts :)
12:02	<agentbleubleu>	i think it would be more useful if we could get some clear guide up
12:02	<A-KO>	irgeek: There's a balance between security and ease of use that one must attain. I use SSH private/public keys for everything. YOu can't SSH into my server with a password (well, if you use lish, sure)
12:02	<agentbleubleu>	can someone who knows what there doing edit the guide i have made
12:02	<A-KO>	but some user whose web directory is being hosted on my server
12:03	<irgeek>	agentbleubleu: It's Thursday night. I live in a Muslim country. My brain is not prepared to edit a guide now. Sorry.
12:03	<agentbleubleu>	as Im still unsure where I have made errors
12:03	<A-KO>	I could give a damn less. I ensure that my dealings are run through secure protocols.
12:03	<agentbleubleu>	ok
12:04	<zeroday>	irgeek, whats so special about thursdays?
12:04	<irgeek>	A-KO: Let me get this straight. You won't allow password authentication with a secure protocol, but your will allow it with one that sends passwords in the clear? Are you kidding?
12:05	<irgeek>	zeroday: In the Muslim world, Friday is the big holy day so Thursday is the last day of the work week and we work Sundays.
12:05	<agentbleubleu>	enjoy your facts guys
12:06	<zeroday>	irgeek, I know fridays are important, im muslim myself :P I was wandering if where you live thursday was a big deal aswell
12:06	<A-KO>	irgeek: again, the data on their directories I don't mind about. That said, I do have other options in place to help guard against any attacks through those channels. But that said, no matter how hard you push security, if you need open access, you can assume that you're never going to be secure.
12:06	<A-KO>	So therefore you just have to weigh what kind of security you need your data to hae
12:06	<A-KO>	have
12:07	<irgeek>	zeroday: I'm not muslim, but I work six days a week. Friday is my one day off because nobody else comes into the office.
12:07	<@mikegrb>	lolz
12:07	<zeroday>	lol
12:07	<zeroday>	which country?
12:07	<irgeek>	Egypt
12:08	<zeroday>	lucky you, all sun and beaches eh?
12:08	<irgeek>	A-KO: Admittedly, as soon as you connect a computer to a public network and start listening on a port your chances of bad things happening go up. But you can mitigate the risk by using secure protocols. Everywhere. In today
12:09	<A-KO>	irgeek: True, but encryption doesn't necessarily mean that it's not remotely accessible. encryption just ensures that someone sniffing in between shouldn't be able to see what traffic is going across. (However, it can be argued that if you didn't exchange the keys securely, that it's not truly encrypted).
12:10	<irgeek>	In today's world, SFTP is just as easy to deal with as FTP since every decent piece of software the needs to move files supports both. I just don't understand your logic.
12:10	<irgeek>	A-KO: The keys are exchanged securely.
12:10	-!-	bleu [~52f94272@webuser.linode.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
12:11	<A-KO>	no, they can be exchanged securely through various authentication mechanisms and the like. But outside using a rather complicated trusting 3rd party to verify the identities of both prior to exchanging any information at all, you aren't getting true key exchange security.
12:12	-!-	Hobbsee [~hobbsee@CPE-124-188-230-36.nsw.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
12:12	<irgeek>	Why not?
12:13	<Pryon>	Isn't trusting the posessor of the secret part of the key the whole basis of public key encryption?
12:14	<A-KO>	Pryon: well, with how modern SSH clients work, you have to assume that the posessor is who they say they are.
12:14	<Pryon>	Right, but if you don't trust even that, you're finished before you begin
12:14	<tpope>	what's being alluded to is man-in-the-middle attacks, I think
12:14	<A-KO>	Pryon: when you makea new ssh connection to a server, and you're granted a prompt to accept a public key that may or may not be signed by a 3rd party.
12:14	<Pryon>	Ah.
12:14	<irgeek>	1) I send you a message in the clear asking for you public key. 2) You send me your public key. 3) I make up a random new key, encrypt it with your public key and send it to you. 4) You decrypt the new key I made, encrypt some information with it and send it to me. 5) I decrypt it. -- Now I have the information, and nobody else does.
12:14	<A-KO>	You don't know if that key is the actual server you're wanting.
12:14	<tpope>	I've never seen a signed ssh server key
12:14	<A-KO>	neither have I tpope
12:14	<@mikegrb>	lolz
12:14	<A-KO>	lol
12:14	<A-KO>	but it's doable
12:14	<A-KO>	I mean
12:14	<Bdragon>	You can do it
12:14	<A-KO>	you could if you wanted
12:15	<A-KO>	but it's not common
12:15	<A-KO>	tpope: the lack of a 3rd party that both trust to me is a large hole in this entire "encryption" argument
12:15	<Bdragon>	And it would prevent "can't verify server" ;)
12:15	<tpope>	there's still alternatives
12:15	<Bdragon>	But really? I'd just use kerberos
12:15	<tpope>	on the first connect use a trusted network
12:15	<A-KO>	Bdragon: yeah kerberos is nice, but still rlies on that "3rd party".
12:16	<A-KO>	I like Kerberos a lot
12:16	<tpope>	e.g., ssh to your office server from work before doing from home on your laptop
12:16	<Bdragon>	Heh, gpg!
12:16	<tpope>	or call someone to verify the key
12:16	<Bdragon>	daemon keysigning party!
12:16	<A-KO>	yeah tpope
12:16	<tpope>	voice recognition is pretty secure
12:16	<Bdragon>	"Hi! my name is _sshd_"
12:16	<irgeek>	A-KO: Why does a third party need to be involved. Before you and I start communicating I can give you my key signature. Now you can verify that you are connecting to me and not a man-in-the-middle.
12:17	<A-KO>	irgeek: Because the exchange of keys in the first place is done over a key exchange that took place over the public network (this is how most SSH connections work) using a self-signed key.
12:18	<A-KO>	Bdragon: kerberos is crazy
12:18	<A-KO>	it's like
12:18	-!-	agentbleubleu [~agentbleu@lns-bzn-22-82-249-66-114.adsl.proxad.net] has left #linode []
12:18	<A-KO>	8-10 steps of security
12:18	<@mikegrb>	lolz
12:18	<A-KO>	lol
12:18	<Bdragon>	heh
12:18	<Bdragon>	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diffie-Hellman_key_exchange
12:18	<Bdragon>	(re: the exchange of keys in the first place)
12:18	<irgeek>	I still don't understand how "I don't completely trust encryption" translates into "I send passwords in clear text"
12:19	<Bdragon>	http://web.mit.edu/kerberos/www/dialogue.html
12:19	<Bdragon>	(re: ker