TheGrebs.com:IRC Logs:#linode:2007:03:09

---	Log	opened Fri Mar 09 00:00:41 2007
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05:06	<jembo>	do you accept paypal???
05:25	<SpaceHobo>	I don't, personally. But I'm not Linode staff
05:25	<SpaceHobo>	I'm just a customer.
05:26	<SpaceHobo>	jembo: Linode is based in the USA, so the staff probably won't be awake for a couple of hours
05:58	<Nigel>	jembo: I don't think so
05:59	<Nigel>	(For good reason too - IMHO)
06:00	<Nigel>	"What types of payment do you accept?
06:00	<Nigel>	Answer:
06:00	<Nigel>	We accept Visa, Mastercard, and American Express.
06:00	<Nigel>	jembo: http://www.linode.com/products/faq.cfm?id=27
06:02	<Nigel>	jembo: not sure what Italian banks offer, but most countries offer prepaid Visa/Mastercard cards (i.e. Gift Cards) or Visa/Mastercard Debit Card
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06:57	<jembo>	hello
06:57	<jembo>	i wanted to know if u accept paypal payments
07:07	<@tasaro>	jembo: No, we do not accept paypal
07:07	<@tasaro>	http://www.linode.com/products/faq.cfm?id=27
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08:43	<Dimu>	Hello, Can i get a download test file in the West Coast DC ?
08:54	<praetorian>	http://www.linode.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2636
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08:57	<Dimu>	Thanks
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11:23	<Razathorn>	I have a suggestion. Don't allow people to enter their username or password FROM a non ssl web page. I realize the action sends the submission data to an https url, but that does not keep someone from defeating the entire purpose of SSL trust by doing a man in the middle or dns poison attack and redirecting linode.com to their own site, which then silently collects usernames and passwords
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12:02	<Darxus>	Nigel: what is the good reason not to accept paypal?
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12:22	<warewolf>	Razathorn: next you'll be suggesting that Linode provide end users antivirus, so that they are not succeptable to keyloggers on their systems.
12:24	<warewolf>	Razathorn: MITM or dns poisoning attacks are outside the realm of that which linode can control, so your suggestions are moot.
12:35	<Razathorn>	warewolf: Give me some credit here and think a little longer about my suggestion. If usernames and passwords are only collected from HTTPS pages, and end users know that linode.com only asks for your credentials on a https page, then if someone DOES do one of the before mentioned attack vectors, they cannot make 'a linode page' that shows https://whatever.linode.com/whatever that has them enter password credentials because the server cert would
12:36	<Razathorn>	now obviously they could do a http:// page, but it's ONLY because people SETUP pages that allow usernames and passwords on http:// urls that people have come to accept the practice
12:37	<Razathorn>	It's not bullet proof, but it's a GoodThing(tm) for companies to do
12:40	<afv-13>	suggestion of https over all pages?
12:40	<Razathorn>	For example, our company has a main 'pretty site' that is not https. At one point, we gave people to simply enter username/password on the main page and it would https post to the other app server. If our 'pretty site' was hacked, passwords could be collected and it would look NO DIFFERENT than normal.
12:41	<Razathorn>	What we did was replace the login box with a link to the https login page. Now if someone manages to hack the pretty site, they at least have to make the experience different to collect passwords.
12:41	<Razathorn>	ie, the end user experience has the potential to at least raise a red flag that something is different
12:42	<Razathorn>	all of a sudden, where they entered credentials was no longer https and had a gold lock
12:42	<afv-13>	not necessarily, they could just change the link to a page of their own
12:42	<afv-13>	the logic is flawed
12:42	<Razathorn>	would their page be https?
12:42	<Razathorn>	if so, it would be a different domain
12:43	<Razathorn>	it's not bullet proof, as I mentioned, it's just a GoodThing(tm)
12:43	<afv-13>	inyouropinion(tm)
12:43	<Razathorn>	not just my opinion ;)
12:43	<Razathorn>	I assure you I'm not the only one who does it
12:43	<afv-13>	kwhatever(tm)
12:44	<Razathorn>	What good argument against this practice do you have?
12:44	<tierra>	so use the actual "Members" link to get the login page which actually is HTTPS with the login form
12:44	<tierra>	it's not a GoodThing(tm) to make the main index page HTTPS
12:45	<Razathorn>	tierra: That's great for end users who are smart enough to do that
12:45	<warewolf>	Razathorn: your mind seems to be infected with the verisign propaganda that SSL certificates mean that everything is A-OKAY.
12:45	<Razathorn>	tierra: I'm not suggesting ssl indexes, seriously
12:45	<afv-13>	Razathorn: for me, any page where you enter details, be it your credentials or shoe size should be over ssl
12:45	<tierra>	hey, it's ultimately up to the end user to ensure their security and validate the certificates anyway...
12:45	<warewolf>	Razathorn: Even if an SSL certificate is signed by a trusted authority in your browser (say geotrust), that doesn't mean that the webserver you're talking to is infact the server or the company you think it is.
12:45	<Razathorn>	warewolf: It doesn't make everything A-OKAY, but it certainly makes things better than average
12:45	<afv-13>	but that's because of privacy
12:46	<Razathorn>	warewolf: somone would have to steal a private key then
12:46	<warewolf>	Razathorn: Geotrust gave an SSL certificate to some random person, that allowed them to impersonate a bank.
12:46	<warewolf>	why steal a private key when you can just buy a cert?
12:46	<Razathorn>	warewolf: buying a cert is a whole different level of complexity for an attacker
12:46	<Razathorn>	warewolf: plus it leaves a paper trail
12:47	<tierra>	if you're not suggesting an SSL index, then what are you complaining about.... all the rest of the logins on the site are HTTPS
12:47	<Razathorn>	warewolf: I'm not talking about solving a problem 100%, I'm talking about making it a lot harder
12:47	<warewolf>	Razathorn: your suggestions make zero difference!
12:47	<Razathorn>	tierra: the login box is on a http:// page that could be spoofed
12:47	<tierra>	are you recommending the login be removed from the index?
12:47	<Razathorn>	warewolf: how do you figure.
12:47	<@mikegrb>	Razathorn: end users that aren't smart enough to login on the member's page are the same ones that blindly click ok when they get an ssl cert warning
12:47	<Razathorn>	tierra: yes -- exactly
12:47	<Razathorn>	mikegrb: perhaps, I agree, but it's still better to some degree
12:47	<warewolf>	Razathorn: 1) End users are dumb.
12:48	<warewolf>	Razathorn: 2) MITM/DNS poisoning attacks are entirely outside of any control of Linode
12:48	<warewolf>	Razathorn: 3) SSL is /encryption/, not a chain of trust, eventhough verisign would like you to think it is.
12:49	<Razathorn>	So instead of ponteitally making it harder to exploit, making it more effort on the part of an attacker, we'd rather just say "it's not our problem" or "the solution isn't bullet proof" when in reality it does add a good degree of difficulty to the attacker and a non trivial additional amount of security for the end user
12:50	<warewolf>	"when in reality it does add a good degree of difficulty to the attacker"
12:50	<warewolf>	wrong
12:50	<Razathorn>	wrong?
12:50	<Razathorn>	how so
12:50	<warewolf>	dude, I do penetration testing and information security for a living.
12:50	<Razathorn>	if you have to get an SSL cert
12:51	<@mikegrb>	all they need to due is self sign a cert
12:51	<warewolf>	I write suggestions on how to make stuff bulletproof.
12:51	<warewolf>	and yes it is possible to do
12:51	<@mikegrb>	s/due/do/
12:52	<warewolf>	the rule of thumb is this: don't trust anyone
12:52	<Razathorn>	a self signed cert is going to make a browser warning
12:52	<@mikegrb>	yes
12:52	<warewolf>	meaning this: the client must authenticate the server, and the server must authenticate the client.
12:52	<Razathorn>	and the guy who came up with this policy works as a pen tester all day long too so enough with the "i've got X credentials" bla bla bla
12:52	<@mikegrb>	but the target demographic you say would benifit from this are the same people that blindly click okay when they get these warnings
12:53	<Razathorn>	dispel or explain why what I'm suggesting doesnt' add some extra level of difficulty for the attacker
12:53	<warewolf>	the only way to do that in a HTTP/HTTPS solution is to have Linode give everyone a client certificate (a certificate for you, and only you) in their browser, and then have end users import the Linode SSL server certificate into their browser.
12:54	<Razathorn>	you can argue that SSL 'chain of trust' isn't that, but in reality, it's fairly good at doing just that for most cases
12:54	<warewolf>	that way the browser says "Okay, I have a linode.com ssl cert that is cert id 0xDEADBEEF" and when it connects to a MITM or DNS poisoned server, it says "Hey, you're not 0xDEADBEEF, this isn't right."
12:55	<warewolf>	and the webserver on linode.com says "Okay, you're saying that you're warewolf, I know warewolf's key id is 0xFEEDABBA -- your key is 0xBA53BA11, you lose."
12:55	<warewolf>	Razathorn: guess again. Windows vista has the exact same implimentation of a "chain of trust" in UAC. Guess what users do EVERY TIME when UAC asks if an application can run as administrator?
12:55	<warewolf>	They click yes.
12:56	<Razathorn>	warewolf: I understand the stupid user problem
12:56	<Razathorn>	warewolf: please assume we can fix that at some point
12:56	<Razathorn>	IF everyone only collected information about login on https gold lock/key pages, then end users would be more likely to only submit it to those
12:57	<Razathorn>	it's a philosophy to improve the standard of security
12:57	<Razathorn>	not a magic bullet
12:57	<warewolf>	it's wishful thinking.
12:57	<warewolf>	and also not bloody likely to happen
12:57	<@mikegrb>	but even if there is a gold lock/key, it doesn't mean the user is safe
12:58	<warewolf>	exactly
12:58	<@mikegrb>	it could just as easily be a phishing page
12:58	<Razathorn>	mikegrb: no, but there's a much greater chance that that they are
12:58	<@mikegrb>	not realy
12:58	<Razathorn>	mikegrb: how so?
12:58	<@mikegrb>	I'd say same level
12:58	<Razathorn>	what?
12:58	<@mikegrb>	there is nothing special about https
12:58	<Razathorn>	other than a root ca of course
12:58	<@mikegrb>	there is no real trust there for a normal user
12:59	<@mikegrb>	but root cas don't matter to normal users
12:59	<Razathorn>	why do you say that?
12:59	<@mikegrb>	they always click okay!
12:59	<Razathorn>	please stop making that argument
12:59	<Razathorn>	that's silly
12:59	<@mikegrb>	it's the truth
12:59	<@mikegrb>	the linode certificate accidently expired
12:59	<Razathorn>	you're going to make policy based on what the stupidest of users do
12:59	<@mikegrb>	people still logged in for weeks until it was fixed
12:59	<Razathorn>	i believe you
12:59	<@mikegrb>	it's not what the stupidest of users do
12:59	<Razathorn>	really, I run some ssl sites believe it or not
12:59	<@mikegrb>	it is what 99% of users do
13:00	<@mikegrb>	could have fooled me
13:00	<Razathorn>	heh
13:00	<Razathorn>	well I specifically work with more security minded folks, and I would have hoped that linux admins would have fallen into that barrel as well
13:00	<Razathorn>	Our client base calls our ass if a ssl cert is expired
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13:01	<blorpy>	hi, i'm an outside consultant
13:01	<blorpy>	i'm supposed to take over here
13:01	<blorpy>	Razathorn: hi
13:01	<Razathorn>	it's all administrators of large networks -- the kind that require lots of warm fuzzy feelings before they do anything
13:01	<afv-13>	i fear your high horse Razathorn
13:02	<Razathorn>	afv-13: seriously -- what high horse. I can't believe I get this reception after suggesting something and trying to have a security minded debate with people
13:02	<Razathorn>	that's stupid, keep it civil please
13:02	<blorpy>	Razathorn: my company can set you up with baby sitters for each of your administrators
13:02	<blorpy>	Razathorn: as well as breakfast, lunch and a mid afternoon snack
13:02	<blorpy>	Razathorn: and they are quite adept at handling all sorts of tantrums
13:03	<kvandivo>	breakfast rocks
13:03	<blorpy>	Razathorn: would you prefer celery and peanut butter or just d.e.e.z ?
13:04	<Razathorn>	It's just hard to believe that nobody else sees the non trivial amount of additional difficulty (or at least additional skill) for an attacker and the non trivial amount of extra security for the end user.
13:04	<blorpy>	concentrate! make your choice
13:04	<Razathorn>	requiring the attacker to GET an ssl cert is a good thing
13:04	<Razathorn>	not bad
13:05	<Razathorn>	just because people are stupid and will use the 'weak door' when left open, doesnt' mean we should leave it open
13:05	<@mikegrb>	but moving the door three feet down the hall doesn't make it any less weak
13:05	<Razathorn>	mikegrb: it does if half the attackers can't reach it
13:05	<kvandivo>	your whole argument is predicated upon the user not being stupid and seeing if they are on https first, though
13:06	<Razathorn>	kvandivo: I readily admit that
13:06	<@mikegrb>	kvandivo: that and that being https means it is the right server
13:06	<kvandivo>	i suspect that any user that thinks to check that is about as likely to just browse the source and see where the form is getting submitted to
13:06	<@mikegrb>	which for 99% of users doesn't really mean anything
13:06	<Razathorn>	mikegrb: why do you have zero faith in the trust model?
13:06	<kvandivo>	well.. not _any_ user.. but most users
13:07	<@mikegrb>	Razathorn: because 99% of users make sure there is no fait in it
13:07	<@mikegrb>	faith even
13:07	<Razathorn>	mikegrb: what about me, what about if I go to linode via https -- are you saying I cannot be reasonably assured that I'm talking to linode ?
13:08	<@mikegrb>	you can
13:08	<@mikegrb>	99% of people can't
13:08	<Razathorn>	I would say the number is lower than 99%
13:08	<@mikegrb>	ok, ok, 98.5%
13:08	<@mikegrb>	it's certainly not lower then 90
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13:09	<Razathorn>	but even then, like I said, I would have assumed, like me as a linux admin, that the linode userbase would be comprised mainly of folks who would pay attention to https and domain trust
13:09	<Razathorn>	so I'm kinda shocked about the expired cert
13:09	<Razathorn>	and people still logging in
13:09	<warewolf>	Razathorn: can you still make the rest of the channel out from up there? We must look like ants.
13:10	<Xel>	warewolf, how DARE you speak his handle.
13:10	<Xel>	How DARE you.
13:10	<Razathorn>	warewolf: Seriously -- where do you get the idea that I'm acting high and mighty.
13:10	<warewolf>	"I would have assumed, like me as a linux admin, that the linode userbase would be comprised mainly of folks who would pay attention to https and domain trust"
13:10	<npmr>	stupid users and their stolen identity 320 credit scores can rot
13:11	<Razathorn>	warewolf: what's wrong with that statement. It's complete fact. I notice https issues. As evidence by mikegrb, the majority of linode users do NOT.
13:11	<Razathorn>	100% FACT
13:11	<@mikegrb>	%52 of linode.com hits are from windows
13:11	<warewolf>	btw, "me as a linux admin" sounds like resume-worthy credentials.
13:11	<Razathorn>	whatever
13:11	<kvandivo>	mikegrb: i can skew that if you give me a few minutes
13:11	<warewolf>	hahaha
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13:11	<Razathorn>	you're just trying to make me sound bad because you don't like my suggestion
13:12	<warewolf>	your suggestion is fundamentally flawed, and you still don't understand it.
13:12	<warewolf>	mikegrb understands it.
13:12	<warewolf>	and he's a linode employee!
13:12	<Razathorn>	believe me, I understand the argument. I've had this exact debate many times
13:12	<Razathorn>	I know how dumb end users are
13:13	<npmr>	i can see how an attack against the current system could work
13:13	<Razathorn>	I just figured that linode customers would be a little better -- but it seems that isn't the case, which also seems to get me called out for being 'high and mighty' for pointing it out
13:13	<Razathorn>	and linode customers is where I got 'linux admin' from -- obviously those logging in would be linux admins
13:13	<npmr>	but making the login form only accessible via https connection is a very small dent in a very large problem
13:13	<Razathorn>	and I HOPED that linux admins as a whole would be more of a security mindset to notice things like https issues that 99% of normal stupid users click through
13:14	<Razathorn>	npmr: yes, but a dent none the less
13:14	<chris>	I log into my linode control panel every 6-7 months, it's about the same timeframe as when I accidentally reboot my linode rather than my laptop
13:14	<chris>	So https? meh
13:14	<Razathorn>	I'm satisfied that everyone understands the suggestion. I'm not really up for debating it anylonger, I think what can be said on both sides has been said. Let's just leave it at that
13:14	<npmr>	it's also possible to be immune to dns poisoning
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13:15	<npmr>	at least dns poisoning in the linode.com domain
13:15	<warewolf>	(not a linode employee, comments made by me are no way endorsed by Linode, LLC) Linode isn't a military instutuion. Linode is commited to providing affordable VPS service -- and they do a damn fine job of it too. Unfortunately, those of us who have been in #linode for quite some time have noticed that there are many linode customers who simply should not be administering their own *nix boxes -- because they don't know how.
13:16	<Razathorn>	heh
13:16	<npmr>	that is true
13:16	<warewolf>	npmr: requires upgrades to support DNSSEC on all network stacks. Unlikely.
13:16	<npmr>	warewolf, no it doesn't
13:16	<Razathorn>	well here's the whole reason I even suggested this
13:16	<Razathorn>	linodes.com is owned by linode right?
13:16	<Razathorn>	note the s at the end of linodes.com
13:17	<npmr>	warewolf, set up the dns proxy on your home network to forward queries to bind running on your linode which forwards to the linode nameservers
13:17	<npmr>	therefore, all of your queries are ultimately being answered by linode's ns infrastructure
13:17	<warewolf>	Razathorn: yes, from looking at whois records it would appear to be owned by Linode, but whois records can be falsified.
13:18	<warewolf>	Razathorn: I'm willing to guess that the records are not falsified, and that linodes.com is infact owned by Linode, LLC.
13:18	<Razathorn>	warewolf: I checked whois as well
13:18	<Razathorn>	logging in from http://linodes.com fails
13:18	<warewolf>	maybe you should log into linode's real website, linode.com.
13:19	<Razathorn>	that's when I thought "oh crap, I just gave out my password to the wrong site"
13:19	<Razathorn>	and went to linode.com and changed my password real quick like
13:19	<chris>	I believe his point is there is a linodes.com that seems to take login information but does not act like an actual interface
13:19	<warewolf>	I'd venture a guess that Linode, LLC purchased linodes.com to prevent cybersquatters from doing exactly that.
13:19	<chris>	Which is actually a concern if true
13:19	<npmr>	linodes.com is caker's
13:19	<warewolf>	chris: linodes.com should probally redirect to linode.com.
13:19	<Razathorn>	yeah
13:19	<chris>	Yes, but it doesn't?
13:19	<warewolf>	chris: not allow logins
13:19	<chris>	That's the point I presume
13:20	<warewolf>	chris: okay, so misconfiguration on apache. Nobody's perfect.
13:20	<warewolf>	well, except for the reverened Razathorn, I mean.
13:20	<Razathorn>	warewolf: burn
13:20	<chris>	Considering the number of fake bank websites and such, seems like it's a valid complaint
13:20	<chris>	But you guys feel like flaming him because of it. So uh.. grats
13:21	<chris>	I don't particularly care about the https issue though, fwiw
13:21	<warewolf>	chris: no, we're flaming him on his flawed suggested solution.
13:21	<npmr>	chris, don't forget that i could spoof your domain :P
13:21	<Razathorn>	I was just thinking that if it was a https site normally, I would have noticed I went to the wrong site. The key phrase is I would have. not 99% of users it seems
13:21	<warewolf>	chris: a valid suggestion would be to have linodes.com simply redirect to linode.com.
13:21	<chris>	npmr: You're still my backup mx aren't you? I forgot completely :o
13:21	<npmr>	heh
13:22	<Razathorn>	I didn't know I could get to a https login page elsewhere
13:22	<warewolf>	ooh
13:22	<Razathorn>	if you click members, it's not https, if you click login, it is
13:22	<warewolf>	Razathorn: guess what!
13:22	<Razathorn>	warewolf: more pointless insults?
13:22	<linbot>	New news from forums: [RFC] New Member's User Interface - Dashboard in Linode.com Announcements <http://www.linode.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2631>;
13:22	<warewolf>	Razathorn: Compare the SSL certificate of https://www.linode.com/ to https://www.linodes.com/ ~
13:23	<warewolf>	They're the same SSL certificate!
13:23	<warewolf>	so, no foul.
13:23	<Razathorn>	would have been nice to receive a warning if the login page was ssl only
13:23	<Razathorn>	cause then I would have
13:23	<warewolf>	and pshaw, you inspect SSL certificates every time something has gone awry.
13:23	<npmr>	i don't know about all you hobos but i always explicitly go to the https site to login in anyway
13:23	<warewolf>	npmr: which is an excellent idea
13:24	\|-\|	JDM [~jdm4@c-69-137-46-113.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: JDM]
13:24	<Razathorn>	npmr: I will too. I suggest that the members TAB also go to https as well
13:24	<npmr>	yeah, like i said earlier, dumb users can rot
13:24	<Razathorn>	right now the only way to get to a https page is to hit the login
13:24	<Razathorn>	the members tab is specifically http://
13:24	<npmr>	or explicitly type https instead of http
13:24	<npmr>	there is no only way
13:24	<warewolf>	Razathorn: So, at this point -- all of your points have been discussed, and proven invalid. You are now a troll, and I don't feed trolls. Welcome to my ignore list!
13:25	<Razathorn>	man warewolf, you're a real ass, you know that?
13:25	<Razathorn>	you're the only one who can't be civil in this whole bunch
13:25	[~]	scott fondles Razathorn
13:25	<Razathorn>	guess disagreeing with someone is grounds for dislike
13:26	<afv-13>	linodes.com doesn't have an ssl cert, it directs everything other than the login form to linode.com
13:26	<npmr>	i've disagreed with him before and he still likes me
13:26	<npmr>	doncha, sweetie?
13:26	<Razathorn>	npmr: Dunno what I did. Guess not taking his "I'm a pen tester I do this all day" as a valid answer to my suggestion was too much
13:26	<warewolf>	him who
13:26	<npmr>	you
13:27	<warewolf>	oh
13:27	<warewolf>	yeah I have nothing against you
13:27	<npmr>	right on
13:29	<warewolf>	a solution to a technical vulnerability should be well planned, and checked. Raz's was ill-conceived. A non-solution hack to solve a nonexistant problem.
13:29	<warewolf>	existent*
13:29	<Razathorn>	Takes a big man to ignore somone and then continue to speak badly of them
13:30	<warewolf>	Takes a coward to think he can talk about someone behind his /ignore.
13:30	<Razathorn>	why don't you scroll back and see who started being uncivil and started flinging insults first mkay?
13:30	\|-\|	SpaceHobo [~spacehobo@host-87-74-55-87.bulldogdsl.com] has joined #linode
13:30	<Razathorn>	I wanted nothing but to discuss the issue, but you couldn't do that -- and as others noted, you would rather flame me and call me a troll.
13:31	<npmr>	this is better than hannity and colmes!
13:32	<Razathorn>	npmr: nah, on hannnity and colmes you cannot use "I do this for a living" as a valid argument against the other side
13:33	<Razathorn>	you actually have to speak to the issue, not dismiss it and make fun of the other side
13:33	<Razathorn>	for example, mikegrb was perfectly able to explain his views and I fully understand and appreciate them. I'm really not sure what warewolf thinks other than I'm a moron
13:36	<@mikegrb>	I thought all the did on H&C was make fun of the other side
13:36	<npmr>	well, it's pretty much the hannity and "that other guy show"
13:36	<SpaceHobo>	oh, warewolf
13:36	<warewolf>	?
13:37	<npmr>	but yeah, it's not a real debate.... just a round of me fling poo
13:43	<afv-13>	those damned soekris boards have been tempting me for too long now. does anyone know of other similar devices that might be a little less costly?
13:44	<npmr>	mmmm soekris
13:44	<npmr>	there's gumstix, but they're smaller and more expensive, so probably not what you're looking for
13:47	<afv-13>	oooh that looks really nice
13:47	<npmr>	absolutely tiny
13:48	<npmr>	ooh, they have new expansion boards
13:57	\|-\|	Dimu [~543f637f@webuser.linode.com] has quit [Quit: CGI:IRC (Session timeout)]
14:01	<Xel>	Heya npmr
14:02	<npmr>	hi
14:02	\|-\|	scott [~scott@scott.noc.oftc.net] has left #linode []
14:09	\|-\|	Razathorn [~raz@li2-175.members.linode.com] has quit [Quit: leaving]
14:20	<warewolf>	I don't think it was a coincidence that an OFTC network operations committee member joined the channel, then left shortly after Raz left.
14:22	<afv-13>	[21:25][21:25] * scott fondles Razathorn
14:24	<afv-13>	adds to the mystery
14:24	[~]	warewolf stuffs his face full of doughnut.
14:25	\|-\|	scott [~scott@scott.noc.oftc.net] has joined #linode
14:25	[~]	scott looks around
14:25	<Xel>	He was probably harassing OFTC about their 'insecure IRC network'
14:25	<afv-13>	my chocolate brownies beats your doughnuts
14:25	<Xel>	And they said "nahbitch, get the fudge out"
14:26	<Xel>	ello scott
14:26	<scott>	hi
14:26	<warewolf>	wn, scott :)
14:26	<warewolf>	wb even
14:26	<scott>	:)
14:26	<warewolf>	<-- hands sticky from doughnut
14:26	<Xel>	Heh I got this certification a month or so ago and the organization that handles it is so hard to get ahold of. 20+ minute hold times to speak with anyone
14:27	<warewolf>	scott- so how's the NOC nowadays?
14:27	<Xel>	It's just some guys apartment closet, duh
14:27	<warewolf>	scott- things running smoothly I presume?
14:27	<scott>	warewolf: http://www.oftc.net/oftc/Staff
14:27	<scott>	yep
14:28	<scott>	so far so good
14:28	<scott>	too bad you left :(
14:28	<warewolf>	I left due to personal reasons.
14:28	<scott>	i know
14:29	<scott>	i still remember your email
14:29	<scott>	ah well.
14:30	<warewolf>	I wonder if I still have that mail
14:30	[~]	warewolf looks
14:30	[~]	warewolf may have blown away his entire staff-oftc list folder on his imap server
14:31	<scott>	heh
14:31	<Xel>	Ohh you two. So cute to watch!
14:33	[~]	scott fondles Xel
14:33	<warewolf>	hey hey now
14:33	<warewolf>	personal space
14:33	<warewolf>	no inappropriate touching in #linode
14:33	<warewolf>	this is a business channel ya know
14:34	<scott>	just adding to the mystery even further!
14:34	<warewolf>	riiight.
14:34	<warewolf>	now you just let on that you have a spy in here.
14:34	<scott>	i have a logbot in here
14:43	<scott>	boy, did that kill the conversation or what?
14:44	<warewolf>	not really
14:44	<warewolf>	usually quiet in here
14:44	<warewolf>	afterall, there is a linode sanctioned logbot in here, so having another doesn't bother anyone.
14:45	<scott>	;)
14:57	[~]	warewolf puts on his "thinking hat" at work. (The hat is also named Lamar.)
14:58	<kvandivo>	does it ponder events and randomly yell 'Griffendor! Ravenclaw!' etc etc ?
14:58	<warewolf>	no, but she's been debeaked.
14:58	<warewolf>	I may have headcrabs, but no lice.
14:58	[~]	scott ponders that thought
15:43	\|-\|	Rifkin [~rifkin@procyondesign.net] has joined #linode
16:09	<GN>	you're all nutty as squirrel poop
16:09	<warewolf>	aha
16:09	<warewolf>	that's great
16:10	<GN>	looks like it was an interesting day on #linode
16:19	\|-\|	Rifkin [~rifkin@procyondesign.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
16:23	\|-\|	Rifkin [~rifkin@procyondesign.net] has joined #linode
16:26	\|-\|	andrew_j_w [~andrew@82-69-30-171.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
16:26	\|-\|	GN [~MirandaIM@pat.foulston.com] has quit [Quit: buh bye]
16:27	<alnr>	********** Start Display Current Environment **********
16:27	<alnr>	WebSphere Platform 6.0 [BASE 6.0.2.5 cf50549.21] running with process name WTOXWWCB2NNode01Cell\WTOXWWCB2NNode01\server1 and process id 3764
16:27	<alnr>	Host Operating System is Windows XP, version 5.1 build 2600 Service Pack 2
16:27	<alnr>	Java version = J2RE 1.4.2 IBM J9 2.2 Windows XP x86-32 j9n142-20050609 (JIT enabled)
16:27	<alnr>	J9VM - 20050524_1738_lHdSMR
16:27	<alnr>	JIT - r7_level20050518_1803, Java Compiler = j9jit22, Java VM name = IBM J9SE VM
16:27	<alnr>	was.install.root = C:\RAD6\runtimes\base_v6
16:27	<alnr>	user.install.root = C:\RAD6\runtimes\base_v6/profiles/default
16:28	<alnr>	Java Home = C:\RAD6\runtimes\base_v6\java\jre
16:28	<alnr>	ws.ext.dirs = C:\RAD6\runtimes\base_v6/java/lib;C:\RAD6\runtimes\base_v6/profiles/default/classes;C:\RAD6\runtimes\base_v6/classes;C:\RAD6\runtimes\base_v6/lib;C:\RAD6\runtimes\base_v6/installedChannels;C:\RAD6\runtimes\base_v6/lib/ext;C:\RAD6\runtimes\base_v6/web/help;C:\RAD6\runtimes\base_v6/deploytool/itp/plugins/com.ibm.etools.ejbdeploy/runtime
16:28	<alnr>	Classpath = C:\RAD6\runtimes\base_v6/profiles/default/properties;C:\RAD6\runtimes\base_v6/properties;C:\RAD6\runtimes\base_v6/lib/bootstrap.jar;C:\RAD6\runtimes\base_v6/lib/j2ee.jar;C:\RAD6\runtimes\base_v6/lib/lmproxy.jar;C:\RAD6\runtimes\base_v6/lib/urlprotocols.jar
16:28	<alnr>	Java Library path = C:\RAD6\runtimes\base_v6\java\jre\bin;.;C:\RAD6\runtimes\base_v6\java\jre\bin;C:\RAD6\runtimes\base_v6\bin;C:\RAD6\runtimes\base_v6\java\bin;C:\RAD6\runtimes\base_v6\java\jre\bin;C:\RAD6\eclipse\jre\bin;C:\WINDOWS\system32;C:\WINDOWS;C:\WINDOWS\System32\Wbem;C:\utils\perl\bin;C:\notes;C:\chbcode;C:\Program Files\Hummingbird\Connectivity\8.00\HostExplorer;C:\oracle\bin;C:\program files\rightfax;C:\Program Files\Oracle\jre\1.1.8\bin;C:\Program Fi
16:28	<alnr>	*********** End Display Current Environment ***********
16:28	<alnr>	[3/9/07 15:27:02:463 EST][3/9/07 15:27:02:463 EST] 0000000a ManagerAdmin I TRAS0017I: The startup trace state is *=info.
16:28	<alnr>	[3/9/07 15:27:02:994 EST][3/9/07 15:27:02:994 EST] 0000000a AdminInitiali A ADMN0015I: The administration service is initialized.
16:28	<npmr>	congratulations
16:28	<kvandivo>	kudos
16:29	<afv-13>	thanks for that
16:29	\|-\|	msmiffy [~msmiffy@prospero.kbc.net.au] has joined #linode
16:32	\|-\|	adamg [~misthos@zeus.misthos.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:39	<alnr>	********** Start Display Current Environment **********
16:39	<alnr>	WebSphere Platform 6.0 [BASE 6.0.2.5 cf50549.21] running with process name WTOXWWCB2NNode01Cell\WTOXWWCB2NNode01\server1 and process id 3764
16:39	<alnr>	Host Operating System is Windows XP, version 5.1 build 2600 Service Pack 2
16:39	<alnr>	Java version = J2RE 1.4.2 IBM J9 2.2 Windows XP x86-32 j9n142-20050609 (JIT enabled)
16:39	<alnr>	J9VM - 20050524_1738_lHdSMR
16:40	<alnr>	omigod
16:40	<alnr>	sorry
16:40	<npmr>	:<
16:40	<warewolf>	hey, atleast you'll never do it again.
16:40	<alnr>	my forearm did it
16:41	<alnr>	d*mn
16:41	<npmr>	ha ha
16:41	<npmr>	touchpad?
16:41	<alnr>	yes :)
16:41	<npmr>	:)
16:41	<warewolf>	haha
16:41	<warewolf>	I hate touchpads
16:41	<npmr>	so how do you like websphere?
16:41	<alnr>	and some weird putty shortcut
16:41	<npmr>	middle click in putty is a paste
16:41	<alnr>	hehe, its not the worst thing in the world.
16:41	<npmr>	same as x windows
16:41	<alnr>	npmr: thats it
16:41	<warewolf>	that is configurable
16:42	<warewolf>	putty++
16:42	<npmr>	any chance you could help me out with an apache axis problem?
16:43	<alnr>	i was reading scrollback so i didnt even realize it happened
16:43	<npmr>	(i realize this is a programming problem and you're probably just installing a websphere app, but what the hell)
16:44	<alnr>	notfamiliar(tm) with axis
16:44	<npmr>	ok
16:44	<alnr>	that was actually a paste to ibm
16:45	<afv-13>	wtf is with everything being (tm)?
16:45	<kvandivo>	well, you're doing it too!
16:45	<alnr>	idunno but it was funny up there
16:46	<warewolf>	:wq
16:46	<warewolf>	er
16:46	<warewolf>	move mouse, then type.
16:46	<alnr>	ha
16:46	[~]	alnr is not the only one
16:47	<kvandivo>	and you guys call yourselves linux admins. I'll bet you don't even use https for everything.
16:47	<warewolf>	yes, but the question is do your feet stink as much as mine?
16:47	<warewolf>	kvandivo: HAH
16:47	<afv-13>	i'm always caught with :Wq
16:47	<afv-13>	surely it should be case insensitive :(
16:47	\|-\|	Deckert [~Deckert@dsl-242-30-217.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #linode
16:47	[~]	alnr linking nano lately
16:47	<alnr>	also liking it
16:47	<npmr>	kvandivo, do i get points for using ssh for most things?
16:48	<kvandivo>	not in 2007
16:48	<kvandivo>	in 1997 that would have gotten you a few points
16:48	<npmr>	even for mail?
16:48	<npmr>	(uucp over ssh, bay bee)
16:49	<npmr>	actually, i stopped using that trick when i set up postfix with tls
16:49	<warewolf>	oh shucks
16:49	<warewolf>	I have to shut down all my VMs in order to reconfigure vmware
16:50	<kvandivo>	real men would just edit the program in core. No need to restart that way
16:50	<warewolf>	I left my magnets at home.
17:06	<Rifkin>	Can anyone here help me with aptitude on Debian sarge?
17:10	<Xel>	Yes. Don't use it.
17:11	<Rifkin>	are you against aptitude or debian in general?
17:11	<Xel>	aptitude
17:11	<Xel>	I love debian.
17:11	<Xel>	Just use apt-get and apt-cache
17:11	<Rifkin>	all right, I've got the same problem with apt-get
17:11	<Xel>	What's up?
17:11	<afv-13>	as a replacement for apt-get it's better at handling dependencies
17:11	<Rifkin>	it just segvs on me on startup
17:11	<afv-13>	as a frontend it's crap
17:12	<Rifkin>	I've been using aptitude for several months, and it's been fine for me, but today I tried it and.. it just segv on startup
17:12	<Rifkin>	apt-get does the same
17:12	<Xel>	afv, I meant as a frontend :P I don't have many dep issues with apt-get to be honest.
17:13	<Xel>	Rifkin, err...
17:13	<Xel>	Get rooted?
17:13	<Xel>	Heh
17:13	<Rifkin>	I hope not
17:13	<Rifkin>	that's a scary thought
17:13	<afv-13>	Xel: anything that removes cruft and packages that aren't required to me is better :p
17:13	<Xel>	I just ask because binaries usually don't just start segfaulting.
17:13	<Rifkin>	I don't see anything amiss besides that
17:14	<Xel>	afv, ever use deborphan?
17:14	<Xel>	Rifkin, hmm... Possible a corrupt archive respository?
17:14	<afv-13>	yup, it's part of my clean_deb script
17:14	<Xel>	Locally
17:14	<afv-13>	localepurge is also helpful
17:14	<Rifkin>	how can I clean that out? If I just do apt-get clean it still segvs
17:14	<Rifkin>	apt-get -h does display useage info
17:15	<npmr>	Rifkin, rm /var/cache/apt/*.bin
17:15	<Rifkin>	so apt-get works.... minimally
17:15	<Xel>	Rif, /var/cache/apt
17:15	<Xel>	*.bin
17:15	<Xel>	npmr screw you :p
17:15	<npmr>	:P
17:15	<afv-13>	Rifkin: do a quick ldconfig
17:15	<Xel>	Rif, remove or rename those files. The /var/cache/apt/*.bin
17:15	<Rifkin>	ok, let me try rm'ing the cache
17:15	<Xel>	Then try apt-get update
17:16	<npmr>	yeah, you'll need to update after that before you can do anything else
17:16	<Rifkin>	ok, apt-get update is working now, after I removed the cache files
17:16	<Rifkin>	thanks!
17:17	<Rifkin>	and aptitude is working again :)
17:17	<Xel>	That was the problem
17:27	\|-\|	Chiphead [~d1a58a14@webuser.linode.com] has joined #linode
17:37	\|-\|	Chiphead [~d1a58a14@webuser.linode.com] has quit [Quit: CGI:IRC (Ping timeout)]
17:37	\|-\|	msmiffy [~msmiffy@prospero.kbc.net.au] has quit [Quit: Smiffy has left the building. http://www.smiffysplace.com]
18:55	<@caker>	< Razathorn> the members tab is specifically http://
18:55	<@caker>	^-- not for me. It's always redirected to https. What am I missing?
18:55	\|-\|	msmiffy [~msmiffy@prospero.kbc.net.au] has joined #linode
18:56	<msmiffy>	Now why would msnbot be trying to request this from my blog: .get_permalink($post->ID)
18:56	<msmiffy>	Is Bill into XSS attacks now or something?
18:56	<@caker>	< Razathorn> logging in from http://linodes.com fails <--- this also works for me just fine
18:58	<scott>	he was on crack
18:58	<scott>	caker: http://sbender.net/~scott/screenhome.jpg
18:58	<@caker>	also, what's the point of forcing the login-auth code to only accept from an https referrer?
18:59	<@caker>	AMD?
18:59	<scott>	:)
18:59	<scott>	amd.
19:00	[~]	caker calls the Apple police
19:00	<scott>	!
19:00	<scott>	if i go to jail i wont be able to pay for my linode
19:00	<Nigel>	caker: if I decide to drop the additional IP I purchased, I assume I can choose which one to keep?
19:00	<@caker>	scott: my Dad works for Apple, you know. how offensive of you
19:00	<@caker>	Nigel: yeah - ticket
19:00	<scott>	oO
19:00	[~]	caker hangs up
19:01	<scott>	caker: well be sure to thank him for such a fine os!
19:01	\|-\|	Deckert [~Deckert@dsl-242-30-217.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
19:01	<Nigel>	okay, it won't be today, but just wanted to check
19:02	[~]	warewolf chuckles
19:02	[~]	scott ponders his escape
19:02	<@caker>	my Dad was the anti-salesman (engrish teacher/high school/retired), would rape car salespeople (figuratively) and somehow he's managed to be the best Apple salesperson in AC (by like 2x what others sell). Pretty amazing
19:03	<scott>	nice
19:03	<warewolf>	caker- yeah, I made one wisecrack at that guy, pointed out the faults in his suggestion, and then he wouldn't get off his high horse. It all went down hill from there.
19:03	<Nigel>	oh yeah... i forgot...
19:03	<@caker>	he's been an Apple advocate (edumacation and all that) since the Apple ][, so it was pretty cool that he's now on Apple's payroll
19:03	[~]	Nigel spits on Nashville :P
19:03	[~]	msmiffy tweaks blog software to further protect against XSS and SQL injection. Try this: http://www.smiffysplace.com/get_permalink($post-%3EID) ;-)
19:03	<warewolf>	caker- sweet, where are your free ipods?
19:03	<scott>	caker: how did he land taht job?
19:03	<scott>	indeed
19:04	<scott>	free ipods for everyone!
19:04	<Nigel>	scott: i'd assume the first step would be applying?
19:04	<@caker>	hehe .. I will admit to receiving a significant discount on this MacBook Pro 17" :)
19:04	<Nigel>	:P
19:04	<scott>	pah
19:04	<scott>	Nigel: it usually takes something extra to get yuor foot in the door
19:04	<Nigel>	"Sign up for Linode today, and get an obligation free iPod" :P
19:04	<scott>	at least in my experiances
19:04	<scott>	heh
19:05	<@caker>	I've ben pretty lucky i that regard -- working in education all those years meant Education discounts on every Apple I've ever owned
19:05	<scott>	:D
19:05	<warewolf>	wow, today was only a 9 hour day.
19:05	<@caker>	ok, since you asked: Apple ][c, Apple ][gs, uh .. Powermac 6100 .. Powermac 9500 (badass at the time), tibook 667, and the mcpro17
19:05	<Nigel>	maybe a 6 month contract just to retain the customers but yeah, Linode would be one of the biggest :P
19:05	<warewolf>	I'm short of my regular day by 2 hours!
19:05	[~]	warewolf cheers
19:06	<warewolf>	I'm 12 hours over this week
19:06	<scott>	caker: no mac pro?!
19:06	[~]	warewolf heads home
19:06	<scott>	warewolf: later
19:06	<Nigel>	mcpro17 = MacBook Pro
19:06	<@caker>	uh, yeah
19:07	<scott>	Nigel: MacBook Pro != Mac Pro
19:07	<Nigel>	oh wait, Mac pro is the desktop version right?
19:07	[~]	Nigel slaps head
19:07	<scott>	yes
19:07	<scott>	i have a powerbook at work
19:07	<scott>	15"
19:07	<scott>	still works great
19:08	<scott>	http://thegrebs.com/~bendy/bling2.jpg
19:10	<scott>	was taken from a treo
19:10	<scott>	:(
19:10	<scott>	forgot how bad that was
19:10	<Nigel>	personally, I think Desktop PCs are redundant these days
19:11	<scott>	eomtimes
19:11	<Nigel>	Laptops just about do what desktops do just as way (cept maybe Graphics tasks and Virtualization)
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